How atheism has helped me (soul, hell, Mormonism, myths)
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In church on Sunday (oh, I should mention that I am talking about my UU church), the sermon got me thinking about how I don't need to be comforted so much anymore. It seems like when I was a believing Mormon, I was so often struggling (trying to feel closer to the Lord, trying to become more valiant and faithful, more assurance from God that he was pleased with me, trying to understand the meaning of my adversities, or understand why God was testing me in a certain way or what he was trying to teach me, wondering why God wasn't helping me more despite me doing all that I could to qualify for his help, struggling with being stretched so thin by all my callings and responsibilities, etc). Due to all my struggling, I was so often delving into the depths of my soul to find comfort (and answers). I prayed so sincerely and often to my Father in Heaven. Occasionally, I would feel close to Him, feel hope through Him and comforted by Him. But, those were but moments in a sea of struggling as outlined above.
When I first quit believing in god, I occasionally missed my Moderator cut: edit , missed the illusion that someone was up there that cared about me and my life and was powerful enough to help, if he would. But, I would remind myself that it had always been just an illusion, that he had never been there even when I was a believer. I had found a way to make it through the hard times then without his help, so I could make it through now without his help as I always had, except this time believing he isn't there.
But, now, I find that I don't struggle very often at all anymore. I don't need to delve into the depths of my being that much anymore. I no longer struggle to feel closer to a Lord because I don't believe he exists anyway. I am no longer trying to become more valiant or faithful. I am no longer seeking the assurance that a god is pleased with me. I no longer try to understand the meaning or purpose of my tough times, because I don't believe there is any purpose or meaning to them. They just are what they are, and I just have to deal with them. Life makes so much more sense when one is no longer searching for divine meaning in them. And it is a relief. There is no lesson God wants me to learn because in all likelihood there is no god. I don't have to wonder why a loving god isn't helping me out. I am no longer stretched too thin by church callings and responsibilities because I am not automatically obligated to serve the church and magnify my priesthood. I get to choose how involved I want to be with no guilt for not being totally active and involved.
It is a huge relief to no longer bear the weight of all that stuff. I didn't even realize how heavy all that was to carry until I took it off. I feel a lot better because of it. I still enjoy feeling what I formerly called the "Spirit". I have gotten to the point where I can pretty much produce those feelings on demand whenever I want to, but I find I don't need to comfort myself that often anymore. Atheism has been good for me and my wife. I understand that it may not be for everyone, but it really works well for us.
I am not atheist because it works for me. I am atheist because I believe that it is very unlikely that a god exists. The fact that it works for me is just a pleasant side-effect.
Hmmm,well if its working so well for you I'm happy for you.I was kind of a borderline agnostic for most of my life before I became a mormon a few years ago in my forties.I however don't find it any real struggle,but I guess its just a difference in personalities.You seem to have been 'really,really' wrapped up in the church and now you're 'really,really'wrapped up in your atheism.Whether you realize it or not,at least through the limited prism I can view of you through this forum,you seem to be feeling a need to justify and re-enforce your new lack of belief.While I know you explained it before,I still don't really 'get' the point of people desiring to go to 'church' although you are sure there is no God with a bunch of other people who are also sure there is no God....but if it works for you,it doesn't bother me.
I didn't exactly have a 'paul on the road to damascus' moment before joining the lds church.I didn't think God micro-managed life before I started attending church....and I still don't.I enjoy the lds church and my callings but imagine if I concluded there was no God,{and I will concede there may not be},I can't conceive of my attending a 'church' of fellow non-believers,i'd just go back to sleeping in on sunday and 'hang out' on forums that didn't involve religion.If I lost my job tomorrow I would blame it on the economy or poor management at the business,or my job performance,not see it as a test or lesson from God.I don't feel all this guilt you felt nor feel i'm carrying all this 'weight'.You seem to have felt a compulsion to believe in something and now you feel a compulsion to 'not'believe.If you no longer believe,thats cool,but try to relax a little more.You are still overthinking things.I've observed but don't understand why many formerly really devout believers who have lost their faith then seem to turn their atheism into a 'defacto religion' of its own where they 'spread the word' in some kind of quest to be missionaries to their new found faith that 'hes not up there' rather than just enjoy their newfound sundays off,and kickback and have a beer.
goodluck to you anyway
It is funny how if one criticizes Mormonism, one gets attacked for "leaving the church but not leaving it alone" and one is admonished to instead talk about the good which one has now found. But, if one talks about the good one has found in their new beliefs, one is accused of having a need to "justify and reinforce one's new lack of belief".
If I so desired I could go off on why you have the need to project flaws and weaknesses onto another's personality, and how that might hint of your own deep-seated insecurities, etc. But, I will not do that because I would be sinking to a level of discourse that is not productive in a forum like this.
Attack my beliefs all you want, but lay off the personal attacks.
Hmmm,well if its working so well for you I'm happy for you.I was kind of a borderline agnostic for most of my life before I became a mormon a few years ago in my forties.I however don't find it any real struggle,but I guess its just a difference in personalities.You seem to have been 'really,really' wrapped up in the church and now you're 'really,really'wrapped up in your atheism.Whether you realize it or not,at least through the limited prism I can view of you through this forum,you seem to be feeling a need to justify and re-enforce your new lack of belief.While I know you explained it before,I still don't really 'get' the point of people desiring to go to 'church' although you are sure there is no God with a bunch of other people who are also sure there is no God....but if it works for you,it doesn't bother me.
I didn't exactly have a 'paul on the road to damascus' moment before joining the lds church.I didn't think God micro-managed life before I started attending church....and I still don't.I enjoy the lds church and my callings but imagine if I concluded there was no God,{and I will concede there may not be},I can't conceive of my attending a 'church' of fellow non-believers,i'd just go back to sleeping in on sunday and 'hang out' on forums that didn't involve religion.If I lost my job tomorrow I would blame it on the economy or poor management at the business,or my job performance,not see it as a test or lesson from God.I don't feel all this guilt you felt nor feel i'm carrying all this 'weight'.You seem to have felt a compulsion to believe in something and now you feel a compulsion to 'not'believe.If you no longer believe,thats cool,but try to relax a little more.You are still overthinking things.I've observed but don't understand why many formerly really devout believers who have lost their faith then seem to turn their atheism into a 'defacto religion' of its own where they 'spread the word' in some kind of quest to be missionaries to their new found faith that 'hes not up there' rather than just enjoy their newfound sundays off,and kickback and have a beer.
goodluck to you anyway
Since we are on the parlour psychology, let me introduce you to the term 'projection'. It is the mode of believing in the god - myth which colours the way theists see atheists.
I would certainly not go to a UU church, though if I did I might find that it supplied the sort of community feeling the Church uses in order to keep people in Faith, like coffee mornings and youth clubs. All perfectly praisewothy and useful - if they are not lnked to a religious belief. But they are.
Which is why we spend a lot of time on this. Why do you suppose the police spend so much time on tracking down criminals - because deep down they are criminals themselves? Why is so much effort spent by mechanics tracing down and eliminating faults in aircraft - because, Deep Down inside, they actually want them to crash?
You will now see the inherent falsity and self delusion of that very old, hoary and discredited, but still often used, snipe at atheism.
The simple truth is that we have come to se Moderator cut: edit religious belief is and are either angry at how we were fooled or angry (as I am) that it it is still being peddled worldwide with a lot of manpower, exposure and money and with essential fallacy, misinformation and lies al the way through.
Can you wonder we feel a sense of dedication in combatting this stuff?
I really like all you have to say, and I'm very happy for you that you have found a place of comfort in your life! And, honestly, that fact has NOTHING to do with whether you are an atheist or not- it's about you finding your own spirituality and own inner strength, and that the latter is best as it stands, as YOU stand.
And regarding the mention of atheism here; I've come to see that there are actually very few differences between devout christians and devout atheists; both are SO worried about being right, preaching, and undermining the values of everyone else, without doing the soul-searching that is ultimately required to find a place within themselves that isn't reliant on external strength. Or, as it may be, the external and unnatural efforts required to repel and oppose said strengths.
When one is truly "at peace" and feeling spiritually whole, within and without, it is effortless. Comfort just is. And while some people find this comfort having and realizing god, jesus or whatnot as a part of themselves and their lives, others find the same completely without. It seems that it is those who are so, so devout on seeking external strength and lacking their own instincts and thought, in lieu of regarding/being ruled by dogma- either by some sort of organized religion or cultural bias. And anyone in tune to their own moral compass knows that being spiritually mature and at peace with onesself has NOTHING to do with external influence; something like the bible, for example, might well be spiritual food taken with a grain of salt at best. But is utterly toxic when taken literally, and used to rule and regard if doing so stands before one's own heart and thinking mind. Likewise, those who repel and refuse such trappings to an extreme, and contrived extent are no different. Some atheists work SO hard at being anti-religious, and anti-everything they perceive as "religious" to any degree that they end up meeting, and existing in the same place and plane as the zealots they so despise. And with the same degree of unhappiness.
Honesty, thought and kindness within onesself, and TO onesself are the best and greatest keys to spiritual success. And of course there are SO many- literally infinite numbers of tools, should you need them (i.e. god, any religious text, church, etc,- or the antithesis thereof). The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you. Think and love, and act accordingly. That's really all there is to it.
I really like all you have to say, and I'm very happy for you that you have found a place of comfort in your life! And, honestly, that fact has NOTHING to do with whether you are an atheist or not- it's about you finding your own spirituality and own inner strength, and that the latter is best as it stands, as YOU stand.
And regarding the mention of atheism here; I've come to see that there are actually very few differences between devout christians and devout atheists; both are SO worried about being right, preaching, and undermining the values of everyone else, without doing the soul-searching that is ultimately required to find a place within themselves that isn't reliant on external strength. Or, as it may be, the external and unnatural efforts required to repel and oppose said strengths.
When one is truly "at peace" and feeling spiritually whole, within and without, it is effortless. Comfort just is. And while some people find this comfort having and realizing god, jesus or whatnot as a part of themselves and their lives, others find the same completely without. It seems that it is those who are so, so devout on seeking external strength and lacking their own instincts and thought, in lieu of regarding/being ruled by dogma- either by some sort of organized religion or cultural bias. And anyone in tune to their own moral compass knows that being spiritually mature and at peace with onesself has NOTHING to do with external influence; something like the bible, for example, might well be spiritual food taken with a grain of salt at best. But is utterly toxic when taken literally, and used to rule and regard if doing so stands before one's own heart and thinking mind. Likewise, those who repel and refuse such trappings to an extreme, and contrived extent are no different. Some atheists work SO hard at being anti-religious, and anti-everything they perceive as "religious" to any degree that they end up meeting, and existing in the same place and plane as the zealots they so despise. And with the same degree of unhappiness.
Honesty, thought and kindness within onesself, and TO onesself are the best and greatest keys to spiritual success. And of course there are SO many- literally infinite numbers of tools, should you need them (i.e. god, any religious text, church, etc,- or the antithesis thereof). The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you. Think and love, and act accordingly. That's really all there is to it.
There's a lot in that. This life is very much about finding a way of living a happy and rewarding life. yes, of course. And if some find it in music, art, religion, irreligion, futba', rock music, porn, drink.... Ok, the analogy only goes so far. I'm happy for you, provided you are not hurting anyone else. And that includes (arguably) yourself)
"The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you.." From the religion point of view that reads amusingly cynical. The church is there to make you feel good, not for you to do God's will. Well, if it floats your boat...but you go on immediately.."Think."
But, if one is going to think, do it using the mental tools and use them correctly. "The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you."
Unfortunately, that is just what cultthink and theistthink does. It misuses those mental tools to mislead you into believing what does not make sense.
It's one thing to be able to say 'if you want to believe that, good for you', but the truth is important. I dislike being lied to and fooled. Others may not mind if it means they can have a mentally undemanding life or quick and easy answers. Yet tackling the myriad of myths and urban legends out there is a challenge and it's more rewarding in the end than just lying back on a featherbed of unquestioning acceptance and waiting to die. It's not for me to make others' choices for them, but it is surely best if they know what choices are on offer.
So yes, it looks like there is no difference between Theist prosetyl..(damn.. prosetyli..I can DO it, but I can't spell it! ) and the atheist kind. That I concede.
What I say is that one is based on sound logic and sound evidence and other is based on first, fallacy presented as fact and, secondly, (when that's exposed) Faith held up as good as..better than..evidence. That can't be right or good and it's a shame if they are allowed to get away with it by those who just want to take it intellectually easy and just love everyone.
But, now, I find that I don't struggle very often at all anymore. I don't need to delve into the depths of my being that much anymore. I no longer struggle to feel closer to a Lord because I don't believe he exists anyway. I am no longer trying to become more valiant or faithful. I am no longer seeking the assurance that a god is pleased with me. I no longer try to understand the meaning or purpose of my tough times, because I don't believe there is any purpose or meaning to them. They just are what they are, and I just have to deal with them. Life makes so much more sense when one is no longer searching for divine meaning in them. And it is a relief. There is no lesson God wants me to learn because in all likelihood there is no god. I don't have to wonder why a loving god isn't helping me out. I am no longer stretched too thin by church callings and responsibilities because I am not automatically obligated to serve the church and magnify my priesthood. I get to choose how involved I want to be with no guilt for not being totally active and involved.
I think this part is a good explanation of why atheism is undesirable to me and more eloquent in doing so than I might do for myself. So in a weird/paradoxical way, thanks.
There's a lot in that. This life is very much about finding a way of living a happy and rewarding life. yes, of course. And if some find it in music, art, religion, irreligion, futba', rock music, porn, drink.... Ok, the analogy only goes so far. I'm happy for you, provided you are not hurting anyone else. And that includes (arguably) yourself)
"The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you.." From the religion point of view that reads amusingly cynical. The church is there to make you feel good, not for you to do God's will. Well, if it floats your boat...but you go on immediately.."Think."
But, if one is going to think, do it using the mental tools and use them correctly. "The key is- YOU use the aforementioned "tools", and don't let them use you."
Unfortunately, that is just what cultthink and theistthink does. It misuses those mental tools to mislead you into believing what does not make sense.
It's one thing to be able to say 'if you want to believe that, good for you', but the truth is important. I dislike being lied to and fooled. Others may not mind if it means they can have a mentally undemanding life or quick and easy answers. Yet tackling the myriad of myths and urban legends out there is a challenge and it's more rewarding in the end than just lying back on a featherbed of unquestioning acceptance and waiting to die. It's not for me to make others' choices for them, but it is surely best if they know what choices are on offer.
So yes, it looks like there is no difference between Theist prosetyl..(damn.. prosetyli..I can DO it, but I can't spell it! ) and the atheist kind. That I concede.
What I say is that one is based on sound logic and sound evidence and other is based on first, fallacy presented as fact and, secondly, (when that's exposed) Faith held up as good as..better than..evidence. That can't be right or good and it's a shame if they are allowed to get away with it by those who just want to take it intellectually easy and just love everyone.
I have to first ask- what is wrong with just "loving everyone"?!? Provided, of course, that said "love" is with conscious intent and heart, and true acceptance and tolerance?! Believe me, I'm no fan of the "hippie love" crap which, to me, is a blind cult-like type of love. But I mean true, HONEST love (and it may not be REAL love per se, but I just mean big fat "like"- which, really, would be more fittingly described as acceptance).
I understand, and appreciate what you're saying. And when stating what I did above, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I might have been...yes, of course I know that there lies a VAST difference between understanding the logic behind one's decision to disregard any belief in god or theocracy and the often disregard or lack of attention to logic one must exhibit to believe in god, etc.. However, when it comes to those who really, really do believe in god, and jesus- whether it be to the nth degree or on their own terms- it doesn't necessarily *have* to make sense. Does anything, really, make ANY sense in this world? Does love make sense?! I've been in love and can testify wholly and fully that it does NOT! But is it real when you're feeling it? You bet.
And of course what I'm defending is NOT this peculiar anthropmorphized "god worship" and "bible thumping" way of life, as that's just absurd, as far as I'm concerned. And I mean no disrespect- it just seems so silly and inane, and SO far removed from any sort of spiritual understanding. But when one believes in, and truly loves god, and jesus or whatnot- they feel GOOD. And in turn DO good. And likewise, when one begins to understand his or herself spiritually WITHOUT said god, jesus or whatnot- it's the same thing. And either way, maintaining this doesn't require any rituals, or religion- it's about living day to day and understanding, and treating oneself and others kindly and lovingly. And anyone who requires external support to do this- well, that in and of itself is the ultimate conundrum.
I'd LOVE it if we could live in a world free from the trappings of organized religion. But....when I really think about it, do I really want people who can't think for themselves to be completely without any rules or fear?!? Just knowing that there are some people who, simply because they're scared to go to hell, do NOT do some heinous things is reason enough for me to be glad religion exists. However, I'm ALWAYS glad to hear, like in the OP, when someone has been able to free themselves from the trappings of what they were once taught and understood, and used their mind along with their heart to make their life the best, and live it as fully as they're able.
So I guess my main point was that whether one believes in any sort of "higher power" or not, so long as they don't allow that which is surface and shallow to interfere and, have erstwhile allowed spirituality as per their own terms and understandings into their hearts and lives- well, then, life is best lived and enjoyed. Sometimes one doesn't have to make sense or logic of things to enjoy them, nor should they- especially when it comes to living life.
But, now, I find that I don't struggle very often at all anymore. I don't need to delve into the depths of my being that much anymore. I no longer struggle to feel closer to a Lord because I don't believe he exists anyway. I am no longer trying to become more valiant or faithful. I am no longer seeking the assurance that a god is pleased with me. I no longer try to understand the meaning or purpose of my tough times, because I don't believe there is any purpose or meaning to them. They just are what they are, and I just have to deal with them. Life makes so much more sense when one is no longer searching for divine meaning in them. And it is a relief. There is no lesson God wants me to learn because in all likelihood there is no god. I don't have to wonder why a loving god isn't helping me out. I am no longer stretched too thin by church callings and responsibilities because I am not automatically obligated to serve the church and magnify my priesthood. I get to choose how involved I want to be with no guilt for not being totally active and involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
I think this part is a good explanation of why atheism is undesirable to me and more eloquent in doing so than I might do for myself. So in a weird/paradoxical way, thanks.
I'm confused as to how any of that, as it has been explained, is undesirable, as you say. ??? It sounds to me that Hueffenhard has found some real comfort in this life. So while it might not be the path that others take, or have taken to find comfort, how is it that his path, or even the resulting end point reached (atheism) is undesirable?
I think this part is a good explanation of why atheism is undesirable to me and more eloquent in doing so than I might do for myself. So in a weird/paradoxical way, thanks.
I understand. You want to struggle if it stretches you to grow. I can respect that. I just don't see the things I mentioned above as "growth" anymore. I was working really hard to become good at something that doesn't matter if there is no god, which I believe now.
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Ok, the analogy only goes so far. I'm happy for you, provided you are not hurting anyone else. And that includes (arguably) yourself) 
) and the atheist kind. That I concede. 
