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Old 07-19-2007, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 225,244 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uma313 View Post
Well if Trebek doesnt believe in hell and it was just a statement about the common belief held by most Christians then YOU can be targeted towards Christians that have that belief and not Trebek.
Um, not sure what you mean here, but I don't believe in an eternal torture chamber either.

 
Old 07-19-2007, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Austin Texas
668 posts, read 49,879 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uma313 View Post
To YOU it means that it is an "eternal ticket to the fiery palace of doom", to me it doesnt mean anything.... Since i dont believe in God, Heaven, OR Hell when i die i'm not going anywhere but in the ground.

Uma, I believe in reincarnation. Your body will go into the ground and your soul will be reborn, and this will happen 1000's of times until you reach perfection.

Just when your reborn.....

Stay out of TEXAS![IMG]
 
Old 07-19-2007, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Morrisville, North Carolina
465 posts, read 1,705,566 times
Reputation: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason1117 View Post
so...what is your evidence?
How do you find God moving in your life?
That's hard to explain if you're not a faith-based person. Things in my life that just "work out" without explanation, praying earnestly from something, and it's suddenly answered; things and situations that seem "coincidental", but that I know in my heart are really not. I believe. It's that simple. When I see my prayers being answered, and I count things as a blessing and not "luck", because I know it's outside of the realm of what man has the power to do for me.

I don't know if you saw the prayer request/ testimony forum. But my 1989 Honda Accord recently died on me. I was a full time nursing student up until June of this year. When my car died, I started bumming rides to school and work. I prayed for four months for God to bless me with a car. A full time student, broke, and barely working, I just didn't fathom a way to get a car. You know how I know God is real? Because out of nowhere, a lady I had worked for for only 3 weeks, taking care of her ill mother in their home, just decided to give me the money for a car. I had borrowed a friend's car for the three weeks I worked for her, and when I had to give the car back, my temp agency had to send someone else. When she called the agency to inquire what happened to me, they explained that I had transportation issues and couldn't return. She then called me directly, and had taken such a liking to me, she was willing to lend the money to me for a car, just so I could be the one caring for her mother and no one else. I am now the proud owner of a 2001 Nissan Maxima.

It's things like that Jason1117. Why me? Why someone she barely knew was she willing to lend thousands of dollars to? Not for me to put a down payment on the car, mind you, but the ability to pay for the car in full. I virtually have an interest free loan. No banks, no finance companies, nada. And guess what I do in exchange? Work for her one day a week, and what I earn goes toward the balance I owe. She said I'm free to start making payments if I wish, or continue the original plan until it's paid off. How does she know I will pay her back? Why does she trust me? What if I skip town? How can you know someone for less than thirty days, and be willing to take that risk? What moved her heart to help ME of all people? And yes, I credit her kindness to God. There's something deeper and greater beneath the "goodness" of a person, it's beyond them. My life has been filled with these types of incidents, and even more extraordinary than this.

That's how God moves in my life. You know Jason1117, you may not be a believer, but I know one thing is true: You will always have hard times in this life, and being a christian doesn't mean you get an easy problem-free ride; but if I must suffer through trying times here on earth, I would rather be on the side of God than the side of Satan. And that's a true story.

Last edited by jeweloflight; 07-19-2007 at 06:11 PM..
 
Old 07-19-2007, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
18,261 posts, read 15,688,802 times
Reputation: 4472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I do believe humans are responsible for war and a lot of pain and suffering but then again I don't believe in a loving god who is omnipotent and omniscient and sits on his butt whilst his children suffer.
Okay, then you agree that humans are responsible for a lot of pain and suffering and according to you, since you don't believe a God would allow it, it can't be Him or a supreme being like Him. It must be humans and/or someone or something else. Which really means you don't know, right?

Quote:
People don't inflict pain on themselves , they like inflicting it on others.
Of course they can (and do) inflict pain on themselves. Ever heard of drug addicts and alcoholics?

Quote:
Christians believe that their creator can see and know all and yet he/she allows the death, pain and misery of its children just because he/she does not want to intervene.
The creator allows people to use their own free will. And to face challenges in life which was agreed to before they were born.

Quote:
My father would have never allowed me to suffer had he been able to prevent it and he certainly would not have allowed me to inflict suffering on others.
Most fathers wouldn't. But sometimes it happens anyway.

Quote:
What a god of love and compassion indeed.
I would try to explain it further to you, but you must have some amount of belief and faith to understand.

Quote:
Your rethoric is yet another nail in the coffin for Christianity for me. So much for spreading the truth .
"Rethoric" could be much better defined by what you've said in your posts. A continuation of life after death makes perfect sense... a lot more than what atheists claim happens.

Quote:
And don't tell me what my real home is, you have the right to believe what you wish but don't try to impose your myths and superstition on me. Worm food sounds good to me.
I don't have to impose anything on you. You will find out when the time comes. It is much better, spiritually, to have faith in God and the afterlife while you are living on the earth.

Quote:
You are quite right , I have no proof god does not exist, but then again I don't claim to, like Christians who claim the "proof" is there for all to see. Where ? It would be very hard to prove the lack of existence of something as by definition there isn't one. If something doesn't exist , physical evidence does not exist . Laws of physics. But then again I am probably talking to someone who believes in creationism. However you believe god exists and yet no physical proof for him
If you can't prove God does not exist, then why do you say there is no God? Are you trying to impose your myths and superstition on me?

Incidentally, I have read dozens upon dozens of life-after-death cases in which an atheist becomes a believer in the afterlife, but I haven't read any cases in which a believer in the afterlife becomes an atheist.
 
Old 07-20-2007, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,039 posts, read 14,822,172 times
Reputation: 19369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
Okay, then you agree that humans are responsible for a lot of pain and suffering and according to you, since you don't believe a God would allow it, it can't be Him or a supreme being like Him. It must be humans and/or someone or something else. Which really means you don't know, right?



Of course they can (and do) inflict pain on themselves. Ever heard of drug addicts and alcoholics?



The creator allows people to use their own free will. And to face challenges in life which was agreed to before they were born.



Most fathers wouldn't. But sometimes it happens anyway.



I would try to explain it further to you, but you must have some amount of belief and faith to understand.



"Rethoric" could be much better defined by what you've said in your posts. A continuation of life after death makes perfect sense... a lot more than what atheists claim happens.



I don't have to impose anything on you. You will find out when the time comes. It is much better, spiritually, to have faith in God and the afterlife while you are living on the earth.



If you can't prove God does not exist, then why do you say there is no God? Are you trying to impose your myths and superstition on me?

Incidentally, I have read dozens upon dozens of life-after-death cases in which an atheist becomes a believer in the afterlife, but I haven't read any cases in which a believer in the afterlife becomes an atheist.

Forget it fleet, you are so endoctrinated you can't even answer one of my points in a logical manner. I don't believe god is responsible for anything because he does not exist, however YOU believe in a god who hates his children and let terrible things happen when he could stop it. A god who is so up himself he needs constance reassurance from mere mortals, and needs to be worshipped and believed in or he will punish us like bad people we are and throw a wobbly and go off in a strop. I mean only a fool would not want to worship at his altar after all, he sounds like such a great guy, balanced and not at all childish. Sorry ,I forgot there is some mysterious plan we are supposed to follow, with because of some book written after the crucifixion of a man over 2000 years. We must follow the cryptic clues given to us and will end up all happy and healthy, jollying along the fields of heaven, care free. Yeah, I 'm the one with myth and superstition problem.... But all will be revealed when we all die and won't we all laugh then at all the misery and pain inflicted upon us.... After all didn't we all chose to be raped, murdered, starved etc... I mean who in their right mind wouldn't... Blimey now I see the light, it's all clear to me, god loves me, that's why he let me suffer, what a privilege. Thank you so much god, I never knew you loved me so. I am so contrite for failing to see logic of of all of this... I mean really it is so obvious, and so reasoned. You believe what you want to, just leave me alone.
There is no after life so prepare yourself to be worm food.

PS: yes people do hurt themselves ( drugs, alcohol, etc.. ) but the express purpose is very rarely to hurt themselves but for recreation. Some people do self harm but once gain that is not done to hurt themselves but to make things better for them in a twisted sort of way. Most human beings hurt others because we are selfish , ill disciplined, greedy, immoral and it is sadly human nature. But then again you believe god made us so he made us like that. Whether he intended for us to be like that or knew we would become like that is of no consequence. He had the ultimate power to change his children's lives. You believed he created us with capacity for evil and did nothing to stop us. And I hear people saying that parents are responsible for not disciplining their children and responsible for their kids actions all the time but that really takes the biscuit. Loving parents always want the best for their kids and not the worst.


Regarding proof, if the proof was there don't you think all agnostics and atheists would believe in god? I am not that arrogant that I would deny the existence of god if I had proof. Nobody is. When I get proof I will more than happy to give you a heartfelt apology. Just don't hold your breath. I spent years looking for god, and nothing. I am still waiting for the "creator" to deign and show himself to me. And what an honour that would be .

Last edited by Mooseketeer; 07-20-2007 at 05:17 AM..
 
Old 07-20-2007, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,657,707 times
Reputation: 520
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I already know what the believer's will say. But, my question is more of a physical one than a metaphysical one. What I want to ask is: When your last breath is taken and your heart stops beating, you are clinically dead. What do you think happens in those last final seconds? Do you think that you realize you are dying? Or, do you think that the world just slowly starts to fade out?

For me, I believe it's something very similar to when you are falling asleep. You kind of know you are falling asleep and then it's like all of a sudden you're asleep. You can't remember those last few seconds before you fell asleep it just happened. I think I'd liken it to that. That is of course, assuming you are lying on a death bed riddled with some disease and not in an accident that kills you on the spot.

I haven't looked at the entire thread but I felt compelled to respond. I am a Christian but not part of Fundamental Christianity. Therefore, I don't believe in the immortality of the soul or anything like it. The bible states (and I'm only quoting it because my belief system is based upon it) that the condition of the dead is simply unconciousness. It is very much like falling asleep and as Ecc 9:5,10 state: 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all'. Ps 146:4 states 'he goes back to the ground, in that day his thoughts do perish'. For this reason, Jesus could say concerning Lazarus 'I am journeying there to waken him from sleep'.
 
Old 07-20-2007, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 225,244 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I haven't looked at the entire thread but I felt compelled to respond. I am a Christian but not part of Fundamental Christianity. Therefore, I don't believe in the immortality of the soul or anything like it. The bible states (and I'm only quoting it because my belief system is based upon it) that the condition of the dead is simply unconciousness. It is very much like falling asleep and as Ecc 9:5,10 state: 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all'. Ps 146:4 states 'he goes back to the ground, in that day his thoughts do perish'. For this reason, Jesus could say concerning Lazarus 'I am journeying there to waken him from sleep'.
Alice, it is crazy to me how much the JW's and I have in common. You are right on here! The dead sleep, according to the Bible, until we all are called to stand before God on Judgement day. It is then that some will go to "hell" and some to heaven.

By the way, the JW's came by my house the night before last. We talked for a bit but I let them know I was strong in my beliefs and wished them well.
 
Old 07-20-2007, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,657,707 times
Reputation: 520
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Alice, it is crazy to me how much the JW's and I have in common. You are right on here! The dead sleep, according to the Bible, until we all are called to stand before God on Judgement day. It is then that some will go to "hell" and some to heaven.

By the way, the JW's came by my house the night before last. We talked for a bit but I let them know I was strong in my beliefs and wished them well.

.........
 
Old 07-20-2007, 08:48 AM
 
12,382 posts, read 14,676,160 times
Reputation: 14578
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Um, not sure what you mean here, but I don't believe in an eternal torture chamber either.
.IMO.We will all be asleep in death until the judgement when we will be judged either worthy of eternal life or eternal death..I think there is a "Hell, that was prepared for the devil and his demons, and all the sins of the world and the corruption of death. If the Lord says to me "I never knew you" then I just cease to exist period.
 
Old 07-20-2007, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 225,244 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
.IMO.We will all be asleep in death until the judgement when we will be judged either worthy of eternal life or eternal death..I think there is a "Hell, that was prepared for the devil and his demons, and all the sins of the world and the corruption of death. If the Lord says to me "I never knew you" then I just cease to exist period.
Very similar to what I believe, but I believe that it is the sin nature that will cease to exist, not the spirit of the person. If you look up the meaning in the original Greek of "lake of fire" you will see that it literally means a "haven or harbour of divine purification". The Bible says that hell and everyone in it will be thrown there! And, that Jesus holds the keys to death, hell, and the grave. To me, this is good news!
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