What Happens to Atheists When They Die? (grace, Isaiah, quotes)

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by Fleet

I didn't, either, until about 6 months ago. It took a lot of trial and error before one of my brothers showed me how.


Many of the books I read contain actual NDE by people who have gone through it. It certainly is not a "fairy tale" for them.

I suggest you read a few books on the afterlife. Try "Embraced by the Light" by Betty J. Eadie, "Life After Death" by Mary T. Browne, and "Saved by the Light" by Dannion Brinkley.

Here is a portion from Mary's book ("Life After Death"):
"Almost everybody who has a near-death experience returns to the body quickly.
If death is so terrible and frightening, why do people who have glimpsed the other side all tell us the same thing? "The experience was wonderful." "I have never felt such security and peace." "There is indeed an afterlife."

People who have had a NDE are never the same. They gain a new sense of freedom because their fear of death is gone. They understand the sacredness of life, and it takes on an even deeper meaning. They realize that the purpose of life on earth is to learn, to grow, to improve, and to serve others.

The earth is a schoolroom for the soul's development. Our bodies are like the blue Tiffany box that holds a gift. Once the gift is removed, the box is discarded. The treasure remains.

The phrase "Only the good die young" was coined by the Greeks. They knew that upon death the soul moved into a higher plane of existence and they felt that to pass over young meant that you had fulfilled you earthly duty. Their philosophy left no room for sentimentality about death. Yes, the loved one was missed, but the Greeks held the unshakable faith that all would be reunited in due time.

It doesn't matter how many years you live, it matters how you live the years."

I'm going to interject with a quote:

Almost no one who has ever studied the near-death experience (NDE) comes away thinking that Hell is eternal.--Dr. Ken Vincent

Note that he didn't say they thought that Hell didn't exist--but that it is not eternal.

[Fleet]

To answer your quotes:
- Re: sucide. Right, round and round we go is correct. Those who choose suicide may think they are ending their pain, but they will find out that it was the worse possible thing they could have done.
Their are exceptions, as I posted (during wartime, for instance).

- Re: "If people want to find out about God, they do not need help unless they ask for it." Strange, I've seen threads on this forum (Religion) asking about God! They HAVE been asking for it!

-Re: "I will never comprehend the delusion that people are under regarding life after death." See, that's your problem right there. You think the afterlife is a "delusion" so how can you expect to understand and/or believe in it.
From "The Empire Strikes Back":
Luke Skywalker: "I don't believe it."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

-Re: "Evil does prevail". Many countries contain large populations in which 90% of the people are good. The evil in this world are a minority. For instance, Muslims... a very, very small percent of them are terrorists.

-Re: "God created us with the capacity of evil." We had a large part in creating ourselves. God essentially allowed us to create who we are.

-Re: "Why do we need to worship him exactly." If you really had religious education up to 18 years of age, I shouldn't have to explain it to you!

-Re: "If it (the afterlife) is not vague, then it must be concrete. Prove it."
You prove it doesn't exist.

-Re: "Why do I have to accept God and Jesus?" Again, if you really have to ask, I question your "up to age 18" religious education.

-Re: "I chose to spell "God" with a lower case letter." In case you don't know, important words are supposed to have an upper case letter, like "President" and "God!"

-Re: "The brain is indeed a wondeful organ." It is, but it can't tell what is being said in another room while it is clinically dead. Those who can recite word for word what is being said while they are clinically dead (no EKG, no brain waves, no respiration) do so through their soul, not their brain.

-Re: "If there was a God, I would believe in Him." How do you know there isn't one?

-Re: "Man has had a compelling need to invent deities." For many of those who have had a NDE, the deity is not an "invention."

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

I'm going to interject with a quote:

Almost no one who has ever studied the near-death experience (NDE) comes away thinking that Hell is eternal.--Dr. Ken Vincent

Note that he didn't say they thought that Hell didn't exist--but that it is not eternal.

Yes, I have read that, too.

There is a place for those who won't or can't ascend into the afterlife (usually because of their disbelief), so they are in kind of like a "holding" area. Neither on the earth or in the afterlife. It's not "hell" as the general description goes, but it is not a pleasant existence, either. That's why those who believe in and prepare themselves for the afterlife while here on earth make the transition much easier and faster.

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by Fleet

To answer your quotes:
- Re: sucide. Right, round and round we go is correct. Those who choose suicide may think they are ending their pain, but they will find out that it was the worse possible thing they could have done.
Their are exceptions, as I posted (during wartime, for instance).

- Re: "If people want to find out about God, they do not need help unless they ask for it." Strange, I've seen threads on this forum (Religion) asking about God! They HAVE been asking for it!

-Re: "I will never comprehend the delusion that people are under regarding life after death." See, that's your problem right there. You think the afterlife is a "delusion" so how can you expect to understand and/or believe in it.
From "The Empire Strikes Back":
Luke Skywalker: "I don't believe it."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

-Re: "Evil does prevail". Many countries contain large populations in which 90% of the people are good. The evil in this world are a minority. For instance, Muslims... a very, very small percent of them are terrorists.

-Re: "God created us with the capacity of evil." We had a large part in creating ourselves. God essentially allowed us to create who we are.

-Re: "Why do we need to worship him exactly." If you really had religious education up to 18 years of age, I shouldn't have to explain it to you!

-Re: "If it (the afterlife) is not vague, then it must be concrete. Prove it."
You prove it doesn't exist.

-Re: "Why do I have to accept God and Jesus?" Again, if you really have to ask, I question your "up to age 18" religious education.

-Re: "I chose to spell "God" with a lower case letter." In case you don't know, important words are supposed to have an upper case letter, like "President" and "God!"

-Re: "The brain is indeed a wondeful organ." It is, but it can't tell what is being said in another room while it is clinically dead. Those who can recite word for word what is being said while they are clinically dead (no EKG, no brain waves, no respiration) do so through their soul, not their brain.

-Re: "If there was a God, I would believe in Him." How do you know there isn't one?

-Re: "Man has had a compelling need to invent deities." For many of those who have had a NDE, the deity is not an "invention."

So once again the intent of suicide is NOT to cause oneself pain. It may cause pain but that it not why people do it.
Also I think you would have had some lively discussions with the priests, nuns, pastors etc... in my life as to them suicide is ALWAYS a sin, noble cause or not. I certainly remember being promised eternal damnation from the catholics and a long term in purgatory from protestants. I don't know if the catholic church has changed its credo but nobody who had taken their own life could be buried in consecrated ground .

And yes if people ask for your help about religion then by all means do tell them what you think. If they don't leave them alone.

Evil does prevail because the majority of people are in pain around the world. If evil did not prevail most humans would be pain and suffering free. If you really believe most humans are good you have not seen much of the world. Never mind true evil ( such as murder, rape and torture), most humans will,lie, deceive and cheat even on their supposed loved ones. Most people will be badly and shabbily treated by the people they trust the most. Most of us will think of ourselves before we think of others. Porn, unethical shopping, consumerism, you may think of these as inconsequential but it is the root of all evil and it's everywhere. The me, me first attitude. The greedy , and self centred behaviour which says I don't give a fig about other people's suffering. Buying a pair of sneakers can be a act of small evil in itself if you don't care how it has been produced and how people have suffered making them for you. Everything we do has consequences and I am glad you are a saint and better than all this. To be good means to think of others before yourself and I have very rarely experienced that. A few Quakers ( people I do respect immensely even though they are Christians ( note capital letters) , a couple of saintly Nuns and Priests( capital letters as they deserve my respect, not all nuns or all priests , note lower case letters) and a few others. Most of us have been too selfish to consider others TRULY.


So now I created myself and I created myself evil, Am I my creator ? So there IS no god then. Am I god ?



And once again , you can't prove a negative as it would require physicality. If it doesn't exist, there is no physicality.

Like you know there is a god, I know there isn't one. Stalemate there for both of us.


Regarding the brain, yes I do believe it has astonishing powers, same with the rest of our bodies. If twins can have such an amazing link thousand of miles apart, I am quite sure the brain is capable of many astonishing feats. Neuro -pathology is still in its infancy and to me is the next frontier. Strange you believe in religious miracles but scientific ones are beyond your reasoning.

18 years of religious education and no I am still not sure why I have to worship god. Just because some people tell me so and so ancient text tell me so just doesn't cut it.
Why does god need my worship and faith. Does he feed on it or something?

As for god, sorry I will still use lower case g for it until I am sure he does exist or if I feel like it. I don't use a capital letter unless it is important. As god IMO does not exist , the word to describe the deity is not any more important than carrot , table or fireplace. The fires of hell are just around the corner for me ...

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

So once again the intent of suicide is NOT to cause oneself pain. It may cause pain but that it not why people do it.

I know. And those who try suicide, are unsuccessful, and have NDE regret attempting to commit suicide.

Also I think you would have had some lively discussions with the priests, nuns, pastors etc... in my life as to them suicide is ALWAYS a sin, noble cause or not. I certainly remember being promised eternal damnation from the catholics and a long term in purgatory from protestants. I don't know if the catholic church has changed its credo but nobody who had taken their own life could be buried in consecrated ground.

I think if you mentioned when it will save more lives, they will agree that it is not punished.

Evil does prevail because the majority of people are in pain around the world. If evil did not prevail most humans would be pain and suffering free. If you really believe most humans are good you have not seen much of the world. Never mind true evil ( such as murder, rape and torture), most humans will,lie, deceive and cheat even on their supposed loved ones. Most people will be badly and shabbily treated by the people they trust the most. Most of us will think of ourselves before we think of others. Porn, unethical shopping, consumerism, you may think of these as inconsequential but it is the root of all evil and it's everywhere. The me, me first attitude. The greedy , and self centred behaviour which says I don't give a fig about other people's suffering. Buying a pair of sneakers can be a act of small evil in itself if you don't care how it has been produced and how people have suffered making them for you. Everything we do has consequences and I am glad you are a saint and better than all this. To be good means to think of others before yourself and I have very rarely experienced that. A few Quakers ( people I do respect immensely even though they are Christians ( note capital letters) , a couple of saintly Nuns and Priests( capital letters as they deserve my respect, not all nuns or all priests , note lower case letters) and a few others. Most of us have been too selfish to consider others TRULY.

You have strange values! You have more respect for "a few Quakers and a couple of Nuns and Priests" than GOD!
Tell me what percentage of evil there is in the world. Meaning of all the humans, how many are evil? 30%? 60%? 80%?

So now I created myself and I created myself evil, Am I my creator ? So there IS no god then. Am I god ?

As I said, you really should read some books on the afterlife because you seem totally confused! You created yourself along with God, along with other spirits who relate to you either in the earthly life or in the afterlife.

And once again , you can't prove a negative as it would require physicality. If it doesn't exist, there is no physicality.

We can't prove that there are planets outside of our solar system. Because we can't physically prove it, does it mean that there are none?

Like you know there is a god, I know there isn't one. Stalemate there for both of us.

No, not a stalemate. You are in the minority. A majority of people being in God and/or a supreme being. Over 90% of Americans believe in God. And thank GOD for that!

Regarding the brain, yes I do believe it has astonishing powers, same with the rest of our bodies. If twins can have such an amazing link thousand of miles apart, I am quite sure the brain is capable of many astonishing feats. Neuro -pathology is still in its infancy and to me is the next frontier. Strange you believe in religious miracles but scientific ones are beyond your reasoning.

I never said I don't believe in scientific miracles.

18 years of religious education and no I am still not sure why I have to worship god. Just because some people tell me so and so ancient text tell me so just doesn't cut it.

26 years of life after death education and I am sure.

Why does god need my worship and faith. Does he feed on it or something?

Again, if you really have had 18 years of religious education (less, actually- what are you going to remember at 1 or 2 years old?), you wouldn't have to ask me.

As for god, sorry I will still use lower case g for it until I am sure he does exist or if I feel like it.

Sorry is right. I do feel sorry for you. With your doubt about the afterlife, you are going to delay yourself from making the transition when the time comes.

I don't use a capital letter unless it is important. As god IMO does not exist , the word to describe the deity is not any more important than carrot , table or fireplace. The fires of hell are just around the corner for me ...

That's your problem right there. You believe God doesn't exist, but you ask why He hasn't helped you. How can He help someone who thinks He doesn't exist?
And you won't be headed to hell, as I already explained, you will be in a limbo between life and death until you accept God as your savior.

[Mooseketeer]

You are just so patronizing , ignored just about every one of my points logically but "whatever" .People like you are so deluded a decent conversation is not even in the realm of possibility.
By the way yes I do have more respect for people who" DO" rather than talk,lecture and quote scriptures. And those Quakers, Nuns and Priests are way more deserving than god (with a lower capital g). Respect should be earnt. I am sure you are such a good Christian that you spend your daily life trying to relieve the world of its pain and doing EVERYTHING in your power to ease suffering worldwide so I don't need to tell you this . I do sincerely hope you do because we are in dire need of those Quakers and Nuns and Priests and yes even Atheists who ACT everyday.
So stop the lecture and go out and be Christ-like for the suffering masses. PLEASE.

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

You are just so patronizing , ignored just about every one of my points logically but "whatever" .People like you are so deluded a decent conversation is not even in the realm of possibility.
By the way yes I do have more respect for people who" DO" rather than talk,lecture and quote scriptures. And those Quakers, Nuns and Priests are way more deserving than god (with a lower capital g). Respect should be earnt. I am sure you are such a good Christian that you spend your daily life trying to relieve the world of its pain and doing EVERYTHING in your power to ease suffering worldwide so I don't need to tell you this . I do sincerely hope you do because we are in dire need of those Quakers and Nuns and Priests and yes even Atheists who ACT everyday.
So stop the lecture and go out and be Christ-like for the suffering masses. PLEASE.

Who is patronizing here? You are the one who said you are sure that God does not exist.
And I did not ignore your points- I answered them... even the wacky ones.

I don't know what else I can say to someone who has more respect for some Quakers, Nuns and Priest than you have for God! Guess what... Nuns and Priests "work" for God! So you are respecting those who work for someone you think doesn't exist! You sure have a strange way of thinking!

So I suggest that you stop the lecture and stop insisting that God does not exist, because you are in the minority on that subject.

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by jason1117

wow,I have to admit it's a bad feeling.

Sure it is. Many people don't think of that when they claim that when they die, they die and that's it.

So....Chrisitians try to believe that they will go to heaven after death in order to make them happier now. Chrisitan try to comfort themselves in this way?

In a word, yes. It makes one less afraid of death. I've read about how some very ill people try with all their strength to stay alive. They may be in very poor condition health-wise, maybe suffering from cancer or heart failure. They fight with every ounce of their strength to stay alive. Then when they do die, the are pleased to be out of their old and worn out body and in spirit form (which has absolutely no health problems).

Those who believe in the afterlife will still fight to stay alive, but they don't panic at the thought of dying because they know that their soul will live on. And that is much more comforting than believing they will be put in the ground and that's it, no continuation of any kind.

[Visvaldis]

But Fleet, truth is not in numbers. So, regardless of how many people believe in god does not prove his existence. Believing something to be true does not make it true.

Suicide is mostly a taboo subject in our society, probably because most would be shocked if faced with the statistics. For some people, suicide is escape from a desperately hopeless situation. I think that most people have thought of suicide, even if only for a short time. Suicide should not be a sin, for some it may the only possible way.

Death and being put into the ground (without an afterlife) doesn't bother me. I can look back on the interesting things I did in this life. That to me is important. Because I rejected the delusion of an afterlife many decades ago, I fully concentrated on making the most of this life...without any guilt. I'd rather live free for a short life than live in a cage for eternity.

I also have no interest in going to heaven, even if such exists (which I highly doubt). I am aware of many evangelists and their hordes of followers - I certainly don't want to spend eternity with such people. No, thanks!

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

But Fleet, truth is not in numbers. So, regardless of how many people believe in god does not prove his existence. Believing something to be true does not make it true.

It does prove that atheists are in the minority (fortunately).

Suicide is mostly a taboo subject in our society, probably because most would be shocked if faced with the statistics. For some people, suicide is escape from a desperately hopeless situation. I think that most people have thought of suicide, even if only for a short time. Suicide should not be a sin, for some it may the only possible way.

Someone thought suicide was "the only possible way out" but found out it was the worst thing she could have done. I'm referring to Angie Fenimore whose experiences she wrote about in her book "Beyond the Darkness."
She was a wife and mother haunted by abuse in her childhood and overwhelmed by despair. She committed suicide, hoping to escape her sense of emptiness and suffering and to move toward the light. But instead of being drawn to the light, she went into a realm of darkness...
"I landed on the edge of a shadowy plane, suspended in the darkness, extending to the limits of my sight. What was this place? I knew that I was in a state of hell, but this was not the typical 'fire and brimstone.' The word purgatory rose, whispered into my mind.

Men and women of all ages, but no children, were standing about on this plane. Some were muttering to themselves. They were completely self-absorbed, every one of them too caught up in his or her own misery to engage in any mental or emotional exchange. They had the ability to connect with one another, but they were incapacitated by the darkness.

Sitting next to me was a man who appeared to be about 60 years old. This man's eyes were totally without comprehension. Pathetically squatting on the ground, he wasn't radiating anything, not even self-pity. I felt that he had absorbed everything there was to know here and had chosen to stop thinking. He was completely drained, just waiting. I knew that his soul had been rotting here forever. I was sure that this man had killed himself. This is the place where hope came to die. Even in the midst of being completely wrapped up in my own problems in life, I had always been considerate to others' feelings. But now I didn't care. I felt no desire to be helpful or even be polite to him or anyone else.

Then I heard a voice of awesome power, not loud but crashing over me like a booming wave of sound. "Is this what you really want?" said the voice. I knew with complete certainty that I was in the prescence of God. Now within the brilliance I could see the form of a man draped in billowing robes of breathtaking whiteness. He was a being of light, not just radiating light or illuminated from within, but He almost seemed to be made of light.

Naturally, I categorized God's creations and assumed that we each get our little parcel. I had grossly underestimated my importance and the nature of my origin- I am literally the offspring of God.

Now His voice exploded with energy. "Don't you know that this is the worst thing you could have done?" I could feel His anger and frustration because I'd thrown in the towel and because I had cut myself off from Him and His guidance.

I answered, "But my life is so hard-"
My thoughts were communicated so fast that they weren't even completed before I absorbed His response: "You think that was hard? It is nothing compared to what awaits you if you take your life." He continued, "Life is supposed to be hard. You can't skip over parts. We have all done it. You must earn what you receive."

He had been there for me all through my life, but I had not trusted Him.

"I told you how to get through this," He said, If you read the Scriptures and pray."

I could now see that prayer is the key to unlocking the truths that are contained in God's written Word. The Scriptures are our textbooks, but God is the teacher. Of course, we are all students, and until the author of the work explains His symbolism, sometimes we just don't get it."

Death and being put into the ground (without an afterlife) doesn't bother me. I can look back on the interesting things I did in this life. That to me is important. Because I rejected the delusion of an afterlife many decades ago, I fully concentrated on making the most of this life...without any guilt. I'd rather live free for a short life than live in a cage for eternity.

As I've said before, a belief in the afterlife, in which were are reunited with our family and friends, is a lot more cheerful than a belief in nothing other than being put in the ground.
And, we are much more in a cage here on earth than in the afterlife. We will have an eternity to learn, explore, have fun, love, etc, in all the universe. Again, our real home is NOT the earth (this from what I've learned from 26 years of reading and researching).

I also have no interest in going to heaven, even if such exists (which I highly doubt). I am aware of many evangelists and their hordes of followers - I certainly don't want to spend eternity with such people. No, thanks!

You have a choice of either accepting God and crossing over into the afterlife or "exist" in a holding area which you stay until you believe in Him. And in the holding area, there is no joy, no love, no fun, no nothing. I certainly hope you don't end up there! You are also not forced to hang out with anyone you don't want to on the Other Side. We are not all pushed into some big room or something. There are also different levels on the Other Side, which I would explain further if you believed in it in the first place.