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Unread 12-09-2010, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Default Beliefs Concerning the Existence of Gods: A Primer

Perhaps it might be helpful to review a few terms. The following comes from the wikipedia entry on theism .

It is possible to categorize views about deities in a variety of ways. One common procedure is to classify views about the existence of deities. This classification system categorizes view about deities as:
  • theism — roughly, the belief that gods or deities exist
  • atheism — roughly, an absence of belief in any gods or deities, or a belief that gods or deities do not exist at all.
  • deism — the belief that a god or gods exists, but does not interact with events at the scale of human beings
  • agnosticism — roughly, the belief that it is not possible to know whether gods or deities exist, or the belief that one does not know.
  • Some classifications group atheism and agnosticism together under the classification of nontheism — absence of clearly identified belief in any deity.
The main subcategories of theism are:
  • polytheism — roughly, the belief that multiple gods or deities exist
  • monotheism — roughly, the belief that only one god exists.
This taxonomy is based on beliefs about the existence of god or gods. Other taxonomies are possible. For example, a different taxonomy is based on beliefs about the nature or characteristics (rather than the existence) of God or the gods. Examples include:
  • pantheism — roughly, the belief that God and the universe are equivalent[2]
  • panentheism — roughly, the belief that the universe is part of God
  • dystheism or maltheism — the belief that God is not, as is often assumed, good, but is actually evil
Other categories of belief include:
  • Animism: The belief that everything is alive; that spirits are in all things, or that all things have souls.
  • Monolatry: The belief that there may be more than one deity, but only one should be worshipped.
  • Henotheism: The belief that there may be more than one deity, but one is supreme.
  • Kathenotheism: The belief that there is more than one deity, but only one deity at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.

Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one deity. In practice, polytheism is not just the belief that there are multiple gods; it usually includes belief in the existence of a specific pantheon of distinct deities.
Within polytheism there are hard and soft varieties.
  • Hard polytheism views the gods as being distinct and separate beings; an example of this would be ancient Greek Mythology.
  • Soft polytheism views the gods as being subsumed into a greater whole. Most forms of Hinduism serve as examples of soft polytheism.

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one deity. There are many forms of monotheism.
  • Inclusive monotheism: The belief that there is only one deity, and that all other claimed deities are just different names for it. The Hindu denomination of Smartism is an example of inclusive monotheism.
  • Exclusive monotheism: The belief that there is only one deity, and that all other claimed deities are distinct from it and false — either invented, demonic, or simply incorrect. Most Abrahamic religions, and the Hindu denomination of Vaishnavism (which regards the worship of anyone other than Vishnu as incorrect) are examples of exclusive monotheism.
  • Pantheism: The view that the universe is identical to a deity.
  • Panentheism: The belief that the universe is entirely contained within a deity that is greater than just the universe and beyond.

Deism is the belief in god or deity based on reason. It typically rejects supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, Deism holds that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of a supreme being as creator. [3]


Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[4] or rejects theism.[5] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism.[6]

Philosophers such as Antony Flew[34] and Michael Martin[23] have contrasted strong (positive) atheism with weak (negative) atheism. Strong atheism is the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist. Weak atheism includes all other forms of non-theism. According to this categorization, anyone who is not a theist is either a weak or a strong atheist.[35] The terms weak and strong are relatively recent; however, the equivalent terms negative and positive atheism have been used in the philosophical literature[34] and (in a slightly different sense) in Catholic apologetics.[36] Under this demarcation of atheism, most agnostics qualify as weak atheists.

While agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism,[37] most agnostics see their view as distinct from atheism, which they may consider no more justified than theism, or requires an equal conviction.[38] The supposed unattainability of knowledge for or against the existence of God is sometimes seen as indication that atheism requires a leap of faith.[39] Common atheist responses to this argument include that unproven religious propositions deserve as much disbelief as all other unproven propositions,[40] and that the unprovability of God's existence does not imply equal probability of either possibility.[41] Scottish philosopher J. J. C. Smart even argues that "sometimes a person who is really an atheist may describe herself, even passionately, as an agnostic because of unreasonable generalised philosophical scepticism which would preclude us from saying that we know anything whatever except perhaps the truths of mathematics and formal logic."[42] Consequently, some popular atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins prefer distinguishing theist, agnostic and atheist positions by the probability assigned to the statement "God exists".[43]


The word "agnostic" was coined by T. H. Huxley, "Darwin's Bulldog," around 1869. Since then, the word has been used in a variety of ways, as follows.
In one sense of the word, agnosticism is the position that it is not possible to know whether gods exist. Agnosticism in this sense is an epistemological position about the limits of possible knowledge. It holds that it is not possible to determine whether gods exist. Specifically, it holds that the question of the existence of gods is beyond the scope of science — that it is a question that cannot be answered by science. This position is epistemological agnosticism or strong agnosticism.[7]
In another, more popular sense, of the word, agnosticism is a personal position. When a person describes himself as an agnostic he usually means one of the following:
  • he takes no position, pro or con, on the existence of gods.
  • he has considered the question of the existence of gods, and has not yet been able to decide whether he believes in the existence of gods or not.
This position is personal agnosticism or weak agnosticism.[7]

Starting my own words here:
It is possible to be both epistemological agnostic and atheist or theist, meaning one acknowledges that it is impossible to know for certain whether god exists or not, but one beliefs that god does exist (for the theist) or that god does not exist (for the atheist) or simply not have a belief in god (atheist or nontheist).

Now quoting from wikipedia under the topic of ignosticism .

Ignostism:
The first definition of this word is the view that a coherent definition of "God" must be put forward before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition cannot be verified empirically, the ignostic believes that it is not coherent. In that case, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the truth value of the existence of God (as there defined) is meaningless (in other words, whether it is true or false does not matter).

The second definition is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "what is meant by God?" before proclaiming it meaningless.

Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism, while others have considered it to be distinct. In any case, it is a form of nontheism.

More on atheism from the wiki entry on it:
Although atheists are commonly assumed to be irreligious, some religions, such as Buddhism, have been characterized as atheistic because of their lack of belief in a personal god.[5][6]

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism[7] and naturalism,[8] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.

Humanism (from wiki entry):
Humanism[1][2] is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality. It is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems, and is incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.[3]


Naturalism :
Naturalism is the understanding that there is a single, natural world as shown by science, and that we are completely included in it. Naturalism holds that everything we are and do is connected to the rest of the world and derived from conditions that precede us and surround us. Each of us is an unfolding natural process, and every aspect of that process is caused, and is a cause itself. So we are fully caused creatures, and seeing just how we are caused gives us power and control, while encouraging compassion and humility. By understanding consciousness, choice, and even our highest capacities as materially based, naturalism re-enchants the physical world, allowing us to be at home in the universe. Naturalism shows our full connection to the world and others, it leads to an ethics of compassion, and it gives us far greater control over our circumstances.

Spiritual Naturalism :
Although naturalism may at first seem an unlikely basis for spirituality, a naturalistic vision of ourselves and the world can inspire and inform spiritual experience. Naturalism understands such experience as psychological states constituted by the activity of our brains, but this doesn't lessen the appeal of such experience, or render it less profound. Appreciating the fact of our complete inclusion in nature can generate feelings of connection and meaning that rival those offered by traditional religions, and those feelings reflect the empirical reality of our being at home in the cosmos.

I am a nontheist in that I do not have a belief in god. I am an epistemological agnostic in that I do not believe we can either prove or disprove the existence of god. I am an atheist in that I estimate the probability of the existence of any type of god existing as extremely low. I am atheist not only because I believe that there is no convincing evidence of god's existence, but because I believe there is evidence that discredits many of the things typically cited as evidence for god's existence, such as the Bible, Quran, fulfilled prophecies, answered prayers, spiritual promptings, near-death experiences, visions, etc.

I am a naturalist in that I do not believe in the supernatural and believe that we are fully part of the physical universe. I am a spiritual naturalist in that I still enjoy feeling the feelings I formerly believed came from the "Spirit" which I now believe are psychologically caused. I study the rules and conditions that govern when those feelings will be present.

But, as opposed to listing all those terms as descriptors of me, I typically just say I am atheist. When someone probes deeper, I tell them that I am a spiritual naturalist.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 06:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
I am a nontheist in that I do not have a belief in god. I am an epistemological agnostic in that I do not believe we can either prove or disprove the existence of god. I am an atheist in that I estimate the probability of the existence of any type of god existing as extremely low. I am atheist not only because I believe that there is no convincing evidence of god's existence, but because I believe there is evidence that discredits many of the things typically cited as evidence for god's existence, such as the Bible, Quran, fulfilled prophecies, answered prayers, spiritual promptings, near-death experiences, visions, etc.

I am a naturalist in that I do not believe in the supernatural and believe that we are fully part of the physical universe. I am a spiritual naturalist in that I still enjoy feeling the feelings I formerly believed came from the "Spirit" which I now believe are psychologically caused. I study the rules and conditions that govern when those feelings will be present.

But, as opposed to listing all those terms as descriptors of me, I typically just say I am atheist. When someone probes deeper, I tell them that I am a spiritual naturalist.
Actually . . . all this confused attribution seems symptomatic of an insufficiently developed sense of "Self." I suspect you have not contemplated what the "I" in your dialogue actually represents nor where it resides as an energy form (real entity) in our reality. I do not assign any negativity to this deficit . . . as there is sufficient euphemistic dissembling within the extant literature and science to produce this result routinely. Gaylenwoof has taken it to a high art in self-deceptive philosophical confusion amidst the jargon . . . so you are in fine intellectual company.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Actually . . . all this confused attribution seems symptomatic of an insufficiently developed sense of "Self." I suspect you have not contemplated what the "I" in your dialogue actually represents nor where it resides as an energy form (real entity) in our reality. I do not assign any negativity to this deficit . . . as there is sufficient euphemistic dissembling within the extant literature and science to produce this result routinely. Gaylenwoof has taken it to a high art in self-deceptive philosophical confusion amidst the jargon . . . so you are in fine intellectual company.
Look I know where you are coming from. I have had long talks with friends who have beliefs very similar to yours. I acknowledge that it is possible that you are right. I have thought long and hard about it, but I really don't think you are right about this. And I don't appreciate your condescending attitude in your post. You are so sure that you are right and that most of the world is ignorant about the special knowledge you have.

The reason I did not post in your recent thread is because it would be exhausting getting into a big long discussion with you. Besides neither of us are likely to change our minds, and I can't prove that consciousness is solely a product of our brain's physiology. And without conclusive proof, you will hold onto your beliefs. But, just so your know I have seriously and sincerely investigated your beliefs. I find them plausible, but not probable. I know that you disagree, but please show some humility and acknowledge that you can't be certain that you are right, so you are not in a position to put others down.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Look I know where you are coming from. I have had long talks with friends who have beliefs very similar to yours. I acknowledge that it is possible that you are right. I have thought long and hard about it, but I really don't think you are right about this. And I don't appreciate your condescending attitude in your post. You are so sure that you are right and that most of the world is ignorant about the special knowledge you have.

The reason I did not post in your recent thread is because it would be exhausting getting into a big long discussion with you. Besides neither of us are likely to change our minds, and I can't prove that consciousness is solely a product of our brain's physiology. And without conclusive proof, you will hold onto your beliefs. But, just so your know I have seriously and sincerely investigated your beliefs. I find them plausible, but not probable. I know that you disagree, but please show some humility and acknowledge that you can't be certain that you are right, so you are not in a position to put others down.
Any "put down" was in the eye of the beholder . . . or my poor writing. My certainty about it is absolute and I have explaiined my reasons for it. That may explain what you detect as condescension. The hypothetical nature of my best effort to synthesize our knowledge to explain it can be legitimately questioned and rejected without fear of my taking any personal insult or offense. I am very familiar with the neurophysiology you refer to and I am sure we would have significant disagreements about what our current knowledge suggests about consciousness/unconsciousness, etc. I reject supernatural nonsense as well . . . but your naturalist (and I suspect materialist) views seem more grounded in our physical reality quite understandably . . . but wrong, IMO (and personal experience). It is OK to disagree . . . there is no consequence here.

(BTW . . . starting a post with the title "A Primer" has a bit of potential condescension in it IMO . . . wouldn't you agree?)
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Unread 12-09-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Any "put down" was in the eye of the beholder . . . or my poor writing.

(BTW . . . starting a post with the title "A Primer" has a bit of potential condescension in it IMO . . . wouldn't you agree?)
The condescension was in suggesting that I have an "insufficiently developed sense of 'Self,'" and that I "have not contemplated what the 'I' in [my] dialogue actually represents".

Quote:
prim·er    /ˈprɪmər or, especially Brit., ˈpraɪmər/ Show Spelled[prim-er or, especially Brit., prahy-mer] Show IPA
–noun
2. any book of elementary principles
Almost my entire post was from wikipedia. I would think quoting wikipedia as a primer for learning the basic meaning of words we use around here a lot such as 'atheist', 'agnostic', and 'theist' would not come across as superior or condescending.

The last part of my post was not part of the primer. I wasn't teaching anything. I was just saying what I believe using the labels from the paragraphs above.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 08:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
The condescension was in suggesting that I have an "insufficiently developed sense of 'Self,'" and that I "have not contemplated what the 'I' in [my] dialogue actually represents".
Regrettably that is simply true of the vast majority of people (including me during the first 30 years of my life prior to the "experience.")If you are an exception . . . it would be a huge exception.
Quote:
Almost my entire post was from wikipedia. I would think quoting wikipedia as a primer for learning the basic meaning of words we use around here a lot such as 'atheist', 'agnostic', and 'theist' would not come across as superior or condescending.
No . . of course not . . . but thinking we NEEDED a primer on the basic meaning of those words WOULD.
Quote:
The last part of my post was not part of the primer. I wasn't teaching anything. I was just saying what I believe using the labels from the paragraphs above.
I understand. But frankly . . . you seem way too serious and sensitive about what transpires here in the forum. Lighten up.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No . . of course not . . . but thinking we NEEDED a primer on the basic meaning of those words WOULD.
Have you read the thread on Atheist Religions? A primer was needed. I am not saying everyone needed it, but there were a number of posters whose understandings of the words 'atheist' and 'agnostic' were at odds with the definitions of those words.
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Unread 12-13-2010, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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It is interesting how the ancient Greeks believed in many Gods, but each city seemed to have their favorite, sort of like a patron saint. Athens had Athena.
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Unread 12-13-2010, 07:00 AM
 
Location: OKC
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Good original post OP.

I wonder if protestantism is really soft polytheism then. Normally, we consider it monotheistic, but the belief in a trinity puts it in the other camp.
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Unread 12-13-2010, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
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Personally, I find the standard definition of 'theism' to be too vague because words like 'god' or 'divinity' are vague. Thus (as I'm sure everyone has noticed by now) I always preface any mention of 'theism' in my posts with a specification: "a conscious, intelligent designer who created the world for a purpose." This still leaves room for many different conceptions of god, but it gets to the core of what I specifically want to argue against. And then, of course, I always specify that I am not a "positive atheist" (to use the terminology in your primer). I don't believe "that there is no god" - in fact I would not be at all surprised if there is one. My point is always that a reasonable person does not need to depend on theism in order to talk about the nature of the universe, the source of order in the universe. the grounds of objective morality, etc. Both theism and atheism rest on equally good logical footings. What bothers me are theists who insist that theism is the only rational approach. That is simply not true.
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