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We're talking about a cross in a cemetery not a church in a park. But to give you the answer you were probably looking for, no. To tell me I cannot wear an upside-down pentagram in the library, say grace at school, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance is a restriction of religion.
No, we are not talking about a 'cross in a cemetery'. We are talking about a cross in a park on public property. Feel free to google-map 6905 La Jolla Scenic Drive South,San Diego, CA 92037, select satellite, and zoom in so you can see for yourself. Why are you claiming that it is in a cemetery? It's not.
Yes, you can wear a cross at school. But you can't bring in several tons of concrete and erect a cross on school property. And the school district cannot then, free of charge, transfer title of that small patch of property preferentially to you in order to circumvent constitutional strictures. Your analogy is utter non-applicable. My analogy -- a religious construction on public property -- is applicable. You can't just plead "But think of the families and ignore the constitutional implications!". Well, actually, you can... but not with any logic.
I just don't get how an ancient torture device is supposed to 'memorialize' those fought in wars...
Maybe they could put a gas chamber and an electric chair on other faces of the mountain and call it a reminder of various methods of capital punishment.
Maybe they could put a gas chamber and an electric chair on other faces of the mountain and call it a reminder of various methods of capital punishment.
Perhaps an atomic bomb on Japanese war memorials, and for the Jewish soldiers, that gas chamber will suffice.
Oh my god, will the persecution of christians never stop?
With all due respect, it will probably cease shortly after those who purport to speak for all Christians (but who, in fact, do not) stop trying to impose their particular version of Christianity on the entire world.
The issue here is one of Constitutionality. As has been established by numerous Supreme Court decisions over better than 100 years, the First Amendment prevents the federal government from anything that may be perceived as favoring one religion over another, or favoring "religion" over "no religion". The Fourteenth Amendment extended the terms, provisions and restrictions of the Bill of Rights to all state and local governments within the United States.
The courts held that the Mount Soledad Cross, being on federal property, is a clear violation of the First Amendment. This isn't open to debate, nor to shouting, wailing or gnashing of teeth. Because the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land, nothing can supercede or override it -- not even majority rule.
Don't like it? Fine. All you have to do is change the Constitution.
Regards,
-- Nighteyes (who follows the teachings of Christ as he understands them)
PS: Purely for the sake of discussion, let's imagine that said cross was suddenly transformed into an Islamic minaret. Would those of you who are objecting to the removal of the cross also object to the removal of the minaret? No? How about if, instead of a minaret, it was transformed into a massive Star of David? Would you object to its removal? No?
I thought not.
-- N.E.
Last edited by Nighteyes; 01-05-2011 at 01:11 PM..
No, we are not talking about a 'cross in a cemetery'. We are talking about a cross in a park on public property. Feel free to google-map 6905 La Jolla Scenic Drive South,San Diego, CA 92037, select satellite, and zoom in so you can see for yourself. Why are you claiming that it is in a cemetery? It's not.
Yes, you can wear a cross at school. But you can't bring in several tons of concrete and erect a cross on school property. And the school district cannot then, free of charge, transfer title of that small patch of property preferentially to you in order to circumvent constitutional strictures. Your analogy is utter non-applicable. My analogy -- a religious construction on public property -- is applicable. You can't just plead "But think of the families and ignore the constitutional implications!". Well, actually, you can... but not with any logic.
To tell me I cannot wear an upside-down pentagram in the library, say grace at school, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance is a restriction of religion.
You are within your rights to do any of those things; in a public school (which is de facto government property), you are not permitted to make participation in religions events mandatory.
Theoretically, I could set up my altar and cast a circle in the middle of the school, and I would be protected under the First Amendment. If the school board were to require students to participate in that ritual as a mandatory aspect of their education, that would be crossing the line.
It is important to note, folks, that here in the United States of America, your personal ability to exercise your freedom of religion (or your freedom from religion) is completely protected, as long as said exercise:
(a) does not begin to interfere with the religious freedom of other people
OR
(b) does not begin to place the health, safety, etc. of other people at risk
So, in FredNotBob's hypothetical case, the exercise of his religious freedoms would be protected right up to the point that the altar and cast circle began interfering with the rights, health and safety of others.
NOTE TO FredNotBob: Actually, I suspect that you would not be able to do such a thing in said school, because it may amount to constructing a religious site on public property. They probably couldn't provide you with a "private" space such as a small room, because that would clearly be favoring one religion over another. Construction in a general-use area such as a hallway, gymnasium or schoolyard could be considered as a traffic hazard, attractive nuisance, etc. (Be interesting to investigate further, huh?)
A U.S. Appeals court has ruled that the cross atop Mt. Soledad is an intrusion upon those veterans who are not christian, and, the cross must come down, as it is on federal land. As a veteran who is not a christian, I am absolutely elated that the court is using common sense. The constitution says that the government can not advocate for any religion (separation of church and state), It's about time!!!
Hay Dusty, how about they replace the Christian cross with this, it's not a religious emblem of any kind but an honors all fallen soldiers. Even an old heathen like me could accept this....
A U.S. Appeals court has ruled that the cross atop Mt. Soledad is an intrusion upon those veterans who are not christian, and, the cross must come down, as it is on federal land. As a veteran who is not a christian, I am absolutely elated that the court is using common sense. The constitution says that the government can not advocate for any religion (separation of church and state), It's about time!!!
On the one hand we have those who advocate for God's existence and on the other, those advocating for God's non-existence. By forcibly removing all pro-God symbols, wouldn't the government, by default, be granting special status to the anti-God crowd? In essence, wouldn't the government be guilty of establishing the 'anti-God religion?'
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
On the one hand we have those who advocate for God's existence and on the other, those advocating for God's non-existence. By forcibly removing all pro-God symbols, wouldn't the government, by default, be granting special status to the anti-God crowd? In essence, wouldn't the government be guilty of establishing the 'anti-God religion?'
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
Very nicely put.
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