Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit
Yes, well good thing that morality doesn't come from religion eh? And as you Christers keep insisting, Christianity isn't a religion (but atheism is).
BTW Mr Adams also stated that "the government of the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion". Everyone at that time agreed with that statement, including George Washington.
The Constitution is a very practical document that describes the 3 branches of Government and the relationship between the states and the federal government. Outside of one clause of one amendment, there is nothing religious about our constitution.
The rest of our laws were written by lobbyist.
You do realize that debating this topic with people that have already swallowed the fallacy their religion propagates without question, have also been swayed to many other fallacies, to hell with the facts, to hell with the documents that were used during the founding of this country.
They may see themselves as being correct, I see them as a threat to everyone's freedoms, including their own.
The problem is they are so insecure and terrified their religion will not and cannot stand up to reason, they have the goal to silence reason so they can continue along in their fantasy without the threat of reason showing their foolishness for what it is.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native
You do realize that debating this topic with people that have already swallowed the fallacy their religion propagates without question, have also been swayed to many other fallacies, to hell with the facts, to hell with the documents that were used during the founding of this country.
They may see themselves as being correct, I see them as a threat to everyone's freedoms, including their own.
The problem is they are so insecure and terrified their religion will not and cannot stand up to reason, they have the goal to silence reason so they can continue along in their fantasy without the threat of reason showing their foolishness for what it is.
Do people not realize that when a person dies, their spirit leaves their body, therefore this life, ceases to be an issue?
However, dead is dead and anything we set up to sustain life for ourselves is gone when we are dead. The world is aging you know and one day it too will die.
You do realize that debating this topic with people that have already swallowed the fallacy their religion propagates without question, have also been swayed to many other fallacies, to hell with the facts, to hell with the documents that were used during the founding of this country.
They may see themselves as being correct, I see them as a threat to everyone's freedoms, including their own.
The problem is they are so insecure and terrified their religion will not and cannot stand up to reason, they have the goal to silence reason so they can continue along in their fantasy without the threat of reason showing their foolishness for what it is.
Herein lies the confusion: Regardless of what is written in the "Regulatory Documents"...the way it WAS/IS, is the way it WAS/IS. And the way it WASN'T/ISN'T, is the way it WASN'T/ISN'T.
My analogy would be: Saying that some bigtime drug cartel leaders' vast fortune wasn't "founded" upon revenue from drug sales...on the basis that "the documents" that spell out our criminal code proscribe drug dealing.
No matter what "the documents" said/say...Jerry Falwell paled in comparison to most of those guys back then at doing and saying things to promote Christianity.
The influence was so strong...it carries on two hundred years later.
There was NO Christianity...or ANY religion, for that matter...in this land until THEY came along...the Native People were spiritual, but they weren't religious (much, much better a "way"-IMO)...so how the heck else do you propose it got so prevalent and locked in?
I'll tell ya how...Because, regardless of what they wrote in "the documents", they pushed it like TV evangelists! Even onto the original occupants of the land they stole/swindled it from (mostly by force)...THAT'S how.
That's what they did...and they are STILL doing it!...anyone that says they didn't/don't...is the one saying "to hell with the facts".
I agree it has been an impediment, and still is a threat, to freedom...but that doesn't make it not the way it was/is.
The same group of people on this board will make one post saying "This isn't a Christian Nation"...then another post complaining "Pres Bush said God (Biblegod that is) told him to go to war".
If it is in fact true The President did that...How much more of a "Religious Nation" can you get than one that has the GOVERNMENT Leader making decisions LIKE THAT based on RELIGION?! NO MATTER what "the documents" say.
Here are some quotes from our Founding Fathers, who wrote the Constitution. Benjamin Franklin:
“The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: That God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?” (June 28, 1787, at the Constitutional Convention)
“Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature.”
“A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins.” George Washington:
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible.” John Adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” James Madison:
“We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” Thomas Jefferson:
“No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be.
“The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man, and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.”
In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol as a church building for Christian worship services. As president, Jefferson attended these services and employed the military band to play for them, at taxpayer expense.
Author Jerry Newcombe says, “Without exception, the constitutions of all 50 states refer to the Almighty God of the universe, the Author and Sustainer of our liberty.” Almost every Ivy League school was established primarily to train ministers of the gospel. Harvard College's first presidents insisted that there could be no true knowledge or wisdom without Jesus Christ.
In 1892, the Supreme Court stated, “Our lives and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian. This is a religious people. This is a Christian nation." (Holy Trinity Church vs. U.S.)
There are thousands of sources that refute Paschal's statements, including books and articles by Bill Federer, Jerry Newcombe, David Gibbs Jr., David Barton and Gary DeMar.
I do agree with Paschal's statement that America is becoming more secular, but this is to our shame.
President John Quincy Adams said, “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: that it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government.”
I rest my case.
I was wondering when someone would introduce the quote game into this thread.
How about this.
Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes"
Quote:
There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites
[George Washington
Quote:
the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion
Treaty of Tripoli.
Signed by John Adams.
There's plenty more where that came from, but you get the point.
Quote:
You do realize that debating this topic with people that have already swallowed the fallacy their religion propagates without question, have also been swayed to many other fallacies, to hell with the facts, to hell with the documents that were used during the founding of this country.
I think this best sums up this thread when it comes to some people.
At least some of us are honest enough to admit the majority of our founders were Deist, and yes, some Christians. I can admit few, if any, known atheist had anything to do with the Constitution.
We don't make up our own set of facts at our own convenience.
It must really burn Christians up that more people are seeing through their lies of a Christian nation. I mean, they are starting to play the persecution card after all
What the "founding fathers" and the "founding documents" said/wrote it was/would be...I do not believe they intended/wanted it to ACTUALLY be.
What many of them said and did...flies in the face of them actually WANTING this country to be non-religious.
This may not go over too well, but...I don't think those so-called "founding fathers" were any different than most high level politicians that have ever existed. They say they will/won't do one thing...but then actually do the opposite...all the while giving speeches and writing up "documents" using shill words and statements. They can't be trusted, and their main objective is their personal agenda...and you will never know what that REALLY is based on what they say or write...because they will always "spin" things to avoid opposition, or appear to be fair.
I don't think they intentionally wanted this country to be non-religious either. As I just admitted, the majority were not atheist. I think what they wanted is for people to have the freedom to choose. The only point I'm trying to make is the law of this land is not based on christian principles.
Yes, some people responsible for the Constitution were Christians, but they did not try to make their beliefs the law of this land. Actually some probably did, but were blocked from doing it by those opposed.
Society figured out a long time before the Bible was written that stealing and killing should be against the law. It's not like people were dumb on those things before Moses. I don't think those two things being against the law make for a strong case of this nation's christian principles.
I'm in 100 percent agreement with the bolded part. Some things never change. Politicians will always be politicians.....no matter the time period.
I was wondering when someone would introduce the quote game into this thread.
How about this.
Thomas Jefferson
[George Washington
Treaty of Tripoli.
Signed by John Adams.
There's plenty more where that came from, but you get the point.
I think this best sums up this thread when it comes to some people.
At least some of us are honest enough to admit the majority of our founders were Deist, and yes, some Christians. I can admit few, if any, known atheist had anything to do with the Constitution.
We don't make up our own set of facts at our own convenience.
It must really burn Christians up that more people are seeing through their lies of a Christian nation. I mean, they are starting to play the persecution card after all
"Their lies of a Christian Nation"?!!
HaHaHaHaHa!! I suggest you get a clue.
Your quotes are like putting up some quotes by vegetarians critical of eating meat...and saying that determines this is not a fast-food beef eating nation.
You do notice what goes on around you, don't you?
4 out of every 5 people-Christian...Christian church on every corner...Christian television stations...Christian Radio Stations...an entire genre (Gospel) of music devoted to Christianity...Federally recognized Christian Holidays...Christian EVERYTHING!!
You've even got the 3rd highest government official saying this: Pelosi Says She Has a Duty to Pursue Policies in Keeping With The Values of Jesus, 'The Word Made Flesh' | CNSnews.com .
What it does, or doesn't, HAVE TO BE based on the law...is inconsequential to WHAT IT IS...and HAS BEEN ever since the hostile takeover by the European Christians that overthrew the Native People.
And let's get another thing straight...they only "founded" THE GOVERNMENT...NOT "the nation". The nation was already founded...they just took it by force and deception and put their own "game" in place--And you can't "found" something by stealing it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
