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I know the feeling brother. I was in the middle of my last long post to you when our power went off. The air was blue I'll tell ya!
The Jewish messiah will:
1. Gather the dispersed tribes of Judah from the four corners of the Earth and return them to Israel?
2. Rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem?
3. Rule at a time of world-wide peace?
4. Rule at a time when all the Jewish people observed your god's commandments?
5. Rule at a time when all people acknowledged and served one god?
6. Be a human being born naturally to husband and wife?
Your Jesus did none of these...not one. That means that he is not the Jewish messiah. No matter how many times you keep saying that he is, it isn't going to change that. That is why the Jews are still waiting for their messiah. Jesus didn't fit the bill mate! You know he didn't meet those requirements, I know it and the Jewish people know it. Jesus the man-god failed...totally and utterly....to fulfil the requirements for the Messiah.
Nice try friend but I've told you before. There is NOTHING in Jewish scriptures that say the messiah will come, be killed and then return 'sometime in the future'. In fact, the opposite is true. The Jewish people say that the messiah will come and complete all the task then and there....first time around. There is no provision whatsoever for a second coming. That is purely a Christian invention to atone for the fact that their man-god didn't do the job. Now if you can provide the OT scripture that specifically states that the Jewish messiah will do half the job and then return later to mop up, I'll be happy to take a look at it....but I don't think you will find it.
Well we only have the Bibles word that those things happened don't you. The only evidence for those thing are your Bible and surely you agree that using the Bible to prove the Bible just doesn't cut the ice. Your Bible is no more evidence that your Bible is true than the book of Mormon is evidence that the Mormon faith is true.
Really!! What historical record would that be?
No, I don't say it. Your Bible says that.
So are you telling me that your Bible was wrong regarding the Davidic line. If surely must be if it says there will always be someone from the Davidic line on the throne yet here, you yourself are telling me that this hasn't been the case.
Well I'll ask you yet again as you have ignored it the first time I asked. ....
1. Do you believe that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus, in which case you would be correct in claiming that Jesus fulfils the blood-line through David through Joseph - Solomon - David or ...
2. Do you believe that Jesus was the product of a miraculous virgin birth and that, in that case, Joseph cannot be the biological fatherand so the blood-line stops at Joeseph.
Choose one or the other my friend but you can't have both. Oh yes, I know you'll rant and rave about Jesus being the 'adopted' son of Joseph but I'm afraid that doesn't count and can clearly be seen by the fact that the Jewish priestly line (forget what it's called) can only passed through the blood-line and not buy adoption. Don't take my word for it mate...go ask the Jews.
According to your beliefs, but beliefs don't count for Jack when you are trying to prove something. Your Bible says it and you believe it. That's it pal....that's all you have. You have no objective, verifiable evidence to back up what you say, just your belief....and that's fine if it works for you but please don't tell me that it is 'fact' or 'true' unless you can support it with objective, verifiable, testable evidence.
To be thorn in your side presumably!!
As my beautiful girlfriend would say, "the bible is the source of the myth/rumor and you can't use the myth/rumor to prove the myth/rumor."
Regarding your claim that one genealogy is that of Mary. I say you are wrong and that throughout your Bible, the maternal line is not used, everything goes through the paternal line. I present this to back up my claim....
Numbers 1:18
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. Numbers 1:20
And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:22
Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:24
Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:26
Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:28
Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:30
Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:32
Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:34
Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:36
Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:38
Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:40
Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:42
Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:45
So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, bythe house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel; Numbers 3:15
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them.
Can you find anything in your Bible that says....'by the house of their mothers'??
Originally Posted by Eusebius And where in the Bible does it say Jesus has to say He is God for Him to be the Messiah?
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
I guess it is important because if he did NOT say it, is it others who said it for him?
Really? Say some did say it for Him, where does it say HE HAS TO SAY HE IS GOD for Him to be the messiah?
I think it kind of cute that you guys make claims over and over which are unproven yet you still say you have proven me wrong over and over. But that's O.K. I guess this is just how it is supposed to be and we just have to work with what we are given.
Regarding your claim that one genealogy is that of Mary. I say you are wrong and that throughout your Bible, the maternal line is not used, everything goes through the paternal line. I present this to back up my claim....
Numbers 1:18
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. Numbers 1:20
And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:22
Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:24
Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:26
Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:28
Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:30
Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:32
Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:34
Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:36
Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:38
Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:40
Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:42
Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; Numbers 1:45
So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, bythe house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel; Numbers 3:15
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them.
Can you find anything in your Bible that says....'by the house of their mothers'??
How say you?
Joseph was married to Mary and Mary was the daughter of Heli. Joseph was not the son of [H]eli.
There is nothing in the Bible which states the lineage cannot go through the woman. If there is please show it. It has to say: "The lineage to the Messiah cannot go through the woman."
Funny but the first hint of the Messiah was that He would come through the seed of the woman in Genesis.
Joseph was married to Mary and Mary was the daughter of Heli. Joseph was not the son of [H]eli.
Please point out just where, in the genealogy that you claim belongs to Mary, where it say Mary, daughter of Heli.
Quote:
There is nothing in the Bible which states the lineage cannot go through the woman.
...but there is something which says that it goes through the man.
Quote:
If there is please show it.
There isn't...that the whole darn point of what I'm saying man. You are claiming that JC's lineage can go through the woman back to David...but there is nothing in your Bible that says that is the case. Apologists are just making up the maternal lineage nonsense to justify the claim that Jesus qualifies to be the messiah. On the other hand, as I have just shown you, there is plenty to indicate that it is the 'fathers house' that is used and NOT the mothers.
Quote:
It has to say: "The lineage to the Messiah cannot go through the woman."
It is you that is claiming that it can, so it is you that has to provide the evidence for that. I have shown you that, according to your own Bible, it is the fathers house that matters. Now you provide the evidence that the mothers house CAN be used....as per your claim. If it doesn't actually say that it can then we must conclude that you are merely ASSUMING that it can.
Sorry mate but you're wrong. Lineage can only be passed through the biological father. That is why a priestly title cannot be passed to an adopted son, only through the biological son...through the bloodline. That's the way it works mate. You have to decide Eusebius.Either Joseph had sex with Mary which resulted in Jesus thereby completing the blood link back to David through Joseph or you can believe that your Jesus was the product of a supernatural, virgin birth meaning that there is no blood-line back to David. You choose my brother...but you can't run with both of them.
Did he:
1. Gather the dispersed tribes of Judah from the four corners of the Earth and return them to Israel?
2. Did he rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem?
3. Did he will rule at a time of world-wide peace?
4. Did he will rule at a time when all the Jewish people observed your god's commandments?
5. Did he rule rule at a time when all people acknowledged and served one god?
6. Was he a human being born naturally to husband and wife?
If you can answer YES to ALL the above you might have a case but you and I both know that the answer to ALL the above is NO....and if the answer to anyone of them, let alone all of them, is NO then your Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah.
Go have a beer and get over it my brother.
2 Samuel 7:12-13. This reads (in the NKJV):
"When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever."
Now on the surface this appears to simply be a prophecy that your god is going to put on the throne a physical descendant of David, and that he will 'build a house for God.' If we are also to take this as a Messianic prophecy, then it follows that this Messiah must be through Solomon since it specifically mentions that he will build a house for God (the Temple which Solomon built). The prophecy continues in verse 16:
"And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."
A confirmation of this is found in 1 Kings 2:4 where it says,
"...you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel."
In 1 Chronicles 17: 11-14 Biblegod says that this is a promise forever. In 2 Chronicles 7:16 there is reference to the fact that this is only if they follow his ways. However, this is only important as it applies to the fact that there is not now, and there has not been at other times since, an actual king in Israel. It is not significant as this is applied to this promise that all the kings of Israel from that time forward will be descendants of Solomon. It is interesting to note that not only does the verse in 2 Samuel mention Solomon by his deeds, but this prophecy of a man on the throne is again repeated, to Solomon by his father David. In 1 Chronicles 22:9-11 it says:
"Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever."
So ol' pal.....Biblegod promises that the Messiah will be a descendant of David, and he will be a king. We saw in the preceding verses that all kings that Biblegod puts on the throne of Israel will come through Solomon.
RESPONSE:
Well researched, well documented, and "well done."
Rafius, why would Matthew and Luke openly publish their two genealogies if they proved Jesus did not have a right to being Messiah?
The Jews were meticulous as to keeping their genealogical records. The chief priests had access to Christ's records. They surely would have brought it up if Jesus' records precluded Him from the Messiahship. You are just barking up the wrong tree (no, I'm not calling you a dog). Everyone had access to the genealogical records up to 70 AD. No one back then said He could not be Messiah due to his genealogy. No, not even one. The apostle Paul who was a pharisee said Jesus is of the seed of David. You can best bet he checked the records. Pharisees were the strictest sect of Jews in Christ's day and knew the Scriptures better than anyone and were extremely strict as to the law.
Not really, they just give different times from different people who visited the tombs.
Remember my analogy of visiting two friends at the coffee shop? I ran into two of them. One is a friend of Mary. I run into Mary and tell her I saw Frieda at the coffee shop.
Another friend runs into Mary and says she saw John at the coffee shop.
Mary runs into John and Mary and they say they saw me and the other friend. Was I contradicting the other friend? Was I lying? AFter all, I never said I saw John, just Frieda. My other friend never said she saw Frieda but just John. Who is telling the truth? Are we all lying? Are we all contradicting each other? No.
RESPONSE:
Your "analogy" fails once again.
These events arereported as having actually happenedas described not mere exchanges of personal accounts.
I guess it is important because if he did NOT say it, is it others who said it for him?
RESPONSE:
The synoptic Gospels and Acts of the Apostles claim Jesus was the messiah, not divine himself. The last written, John's Gospel (c 96-105 AD) implies that Jesus may be divine in the seven "I am" sayings, none of which are reported in the other three gospels.
1. Gather the dispersed tribes of Judah from the four corners of the Earth and return them to Israel?
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
2. Did he rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem?
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
3. Did he will rule at a time of world-wide peace?
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
4. Did he will rule at a time when all the Jewish people observed your god's commandments?
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
5. Did he rule rule at a time when all people acknowledged and served one god?
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
6. Was he a human being born naturally to husband and wife?
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
Quote:
If you can answer YES to ALL the above you might have a case but you and I both know that the answer to ALL the above is NO....and if the answer to anyone of them, let alone all of them, is NO then your Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah.
Quote:
Remember the promise given to Eve about the seed?
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The air was blue I'll tell ya!
