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Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Christian hell as described in many parts of the Bible doesn't sound reformative. I've never seen any passages that would suggest that hell has something similar to parole for good behavior, it's always described as eternal. There's many parts of the Bible that can be interpreted in various ways but the descriptions of hell seem pretty consistent.
Hallelujah!!! As jazzed said, even, MG, an atheist, understands what the Bible teaches! May not believe it but does understand the teaching!
The Christian hell as described in many parts of the Bible doesn't sound reformative. I've never seen any passages that would suggest that hell has something similar to parole for good behavior, it's always described as eternal. There's many parts of the Bible that can be interpreted in various ways but the descriptions of hell seem pretty consistent.
AH, but what you all going off of is the (incorrect) translation of key words.
The word "eternal" in most instances comes from "aion", which is a determined period of time, not eternity.
The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him
Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Good verse you posted Jazz, hey Jeff I voted for the 1st answer eternal hell is forever....I know you're surprised . Maybe you should just let this one go and move on to another subject
AH, but what you all going off of is the (incorrect) translation of key words.
The word "eternal" in most instances comes from "aion", which is a determined period of time, not eternity.
The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!
So if a Christian doctrine doesn't appear at all in the Old Testament, it is invalid or at least suspect?
Are you an athiest? If so, do you find the Christian God as traditionally portrayed to be sadistic, as opposed to loving?
Agnostic here. I was raised Catholic. I don't believe in "fire and brimstone" preachings. I do think the Fundamentalists take "The Bible" too literally. Any account past down from generation to generation is going to lose accuracy. Truth can also be lost in translation. Each speaker is bound to place his own "spin" on god's word.
Your question to Christians:
CHRISTIANS--Do you find God as portrayed from the Universalist standpoint to be lax on punishment? If so, why is an eternity of torture needed when God has the ability to reform sinners via His judgements, thus truly becoming all in all, and having perfect victory?
I feel I have no right to question God’s judgment on man, but the Universalist standpoint does in my opinion. Why is an eternity of torture needed when God has the ability to reform sinners via His judgments is something you will need to ask God. All I can say is that God is holy and his judgments are just. He already has perfect victory, we have a choice through Christ. Man is without excuse. Either you believe the bible or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
I question what God's followers say about Him, not His word.
If God is Holy and His judgements just then eternal punishment is not true!
I believe the Bible in it's original languages, shouldn't we all? Read the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and talk to me about eternal punishment!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
“Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him” (2 Samuel 14:14).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Revelation 20:5-8
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Notice Jeff that it is NOT stated that God will give these things to everyone…or to the world!
Isn't it interesting that the "fiery lake of burning sulfur" had an entirely different meaning in the Greek, which is why the majority of early Christians were Universalists? The term "lake of fire" in the Greek means literally "harbor or haven of divine purification". Don't believe me? Look it up!
Now where is it that everyone in hell will be thrown after the judgement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Universalism takes verses out of context to fit what they believe about Hell. God is loving, but there is a time for judgment and then there will be no more mercy.
I thought His mercy endures forever? And I disagree. Those that believe in hell do the very thing they accuse universalists of! Either that or they do interpretive back flips in order to squeeze the verses that speak of universal reconciliation into the hell box of theology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
You quoted part of the following verse…but take the whole thing and it has a different meaning does it not? Notice verse 33: He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die! Meaning: by his death ALL men will be drawn to Christ. His death would cover ALL sins…but that does not mean ALL will choose Him. It does not say all men will come into heaven and live with me. It says all men with be drawn!
Actually, it's drag in the original Greek. It is a word that always inferrs being dragged (or drawn) against one's will. Interesting, no?
John 12:30-33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
How do Christians read these verses and skim right over the truth? You're using this verse to disprove me, when the verse says He will drag ALL MEN to Himself!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Serious Jeff, if you want to know the truth, have an open mind. Read these verses and hear that all will not be in heaven one day.
John 5:24 (New International Version)
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Your belief in eternal punishment makes a lie of other scriptures like this one...
“For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though He brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lam 3:31-33)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
John 11:25-26 (New International Version)
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Note that this says die, not be punished eternally. Big difference wouldn't you say? Perhaps the sin nature is what is dying here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
[1 Timothy 2:3-4 (New International Version)
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
The verse says he wants all men to be saved it does not say all men will be saved. Big difference.
So what God wants is a weak, unattainable wish? Why then does God say this...
"Look unto me, and be ye SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; for I am GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. I HAVE WORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT [what part of the word 'NOT' don't you understand?] ...SHALL NOT RETURN, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR"!!!
Now then, what is the result of anything that God "says"? Turn over one chapter to Isaiah 46 and the last half of verse 11:
"...I have SPOKEN IT, I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; I have PROPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
One cannot go to heaven by simply stating he believes. One must truly believe in his heart and only God knows the true believers from the fake ones. At the same time one cannot go to heaven simply because he is avoiding Hell. Hell is there for those who refuse to believe…not because man is imperfect and dumb…God knows the heart which we do not! Man is without excuse…God speaks to the heart… so why would someone go to Hell? Because they were misguided? Because they just didn’t know? The bible speaks to this, we simply need to believe what God is telling us!
Amen! But it is obvious that most don't...so most are going to hell...where is perfect victory if God is "losing" most of His creation to eternal damnation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Nowhere in the entire bible does it say that all man will be saved. Nowhere! It’s not about what makes most sense to us, it is about what makes most sense to God.
I disagree. The Bible says it everywhere, if we'll just take off the blinders. And didn't God give us reason and logic? Why then does He want us to discard them?
Could you please give us some verses that say that all people will go to heaven?
Certainly! Here's just a few...
“Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him” (2 Samuel 14:14).
“The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up.” 1 Samuel 2: 6
“See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” (Deuteronomy 32:39). Isn't the whole world in His Hands?
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave (Sheol/Hell); I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave (Sheol/Hell), I will be your destruction!” (Hosea 13:11-14).
“For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though He brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lam 3:31-33)
“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny” (Matthew 5:25-26).
“All nations” will praise Him, come to Him, serve Him, be blessed in Him and bow to Him? (Psalm 45:17, Ps. 86:9, Isaiah 62:11, Daniel 7:14 Ps 66:1, Ps 72:11, Ps 102:15, Jer. 3:17, Ps 72:17, Isa. 2:2, Isa. 11:10, Isa. 52:10, Rev. 5:13 etc.)
“On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine- the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken” (Isaiah 26:6-8).
Mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13)
Where sin abounded grace did much more abound. (Rom. 5:20)
All flesh will come to God. (Psalm 65:2-4)
And when will the poor of the earth be avenged and comforted by God? (Psalm 113:7, Psalm 140:12, Proverbs 14:31, Proverbs 19:17, Proverbs 31:9, Isaiah 11:4, Isaiah 61:1, Jeremiah 22:16 etc.) (Bear in mind that most of the poor of the earth throughout history have not had a chance to accept Jesus as their savior).
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