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View Poll Results: Assume God and hell are real. Hell is:
A never ending literal place of infinite torture for sins committed in this life. 13 48.15%
A literal place to learn hard lessons in order to lead the soul to repentance, and then God. 2 7.41%
Metaphorical. Hell is of our own making here on earth, not literal. 9 33.33%
A small town in southeastern Michigan. "Welcome to Hell!" 3 11.11%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-16-2007, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 3,187,840 times
Reputation: 466

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
Im just a old fashioned KJV type of guy that believes theres not a conspiracy theory so to speak on Hell.
I like ya, arguy, so I'm not saying this to condescend, or anything close to it. But have you studied this at all? It is a sad but historically verified fact that a conspiracy is exactly what happened when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible. If anyone else thinks otherwise I would like to see where they got this information as it contradicts all historic documentation that I have seen from a variety of sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
That being said, I believe that God is overly capable of making anytype of judgement he sees fit, I dont think thats blaspemous at all. Hes God..I aint.
Of course He is, and of course we aren't. But we are told God is Love...the literal embodiment of love and what we are to mimick and strive to be more like. Why then does God say forgive your enemies, over and over, whether or not they ask for it, when we are told that He will not do so Himself?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 3,187,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
Matt. 25:46 and Universalism

"And these will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

The universalists do not believe in eternal punishment. Universalists teach that all will eventually be saved through the atonement of Jesus. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of eternal punishment and hell fire, etc., the universalist interprets it to mean an inner sorrow due to loss of reward and/or they maintain that the word "eternal" does not mean "without end."
In Greek, the word "eternal" is the word "", or "aionion." This word occurs in two places in Matt. 25:46: Let's look at it again in a Greek Interlinear form:



The exact same word "," "aionion" is used to describe the duration of punishment as well as of the life of the righteous - those who are saved. The same word describes both conditions. If it means one thing in the first part of this sentence, then it means the same thing in the second part since they are both in the same context and both are describing time-duration of the states of the unsaved and the saved. If the punishment is eternal, then so is the life. Likewise, if, as the universalist says, the punishment is not eternal, then neither is the life. You can't pick and choose how the word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology.
But the universalists do just that. They want to have Jesus say that eternal life is forever but eternal punishment is not -- even though Jesus used the same word, in the same breath, to describe them both. It just doesn't fit their preconceived ideas.
This info is from CARM, a site that I know well.

CARM argues that if aionian and related words do not mean eternal, then God cannot be eternal, for these words also describe Him. My response is that just because God is described as the God of the eons, does not mean that He is not the God who also transcends the eons. In the same way, just because He is called the God of Israel , does not also mean that He is not the God of all the other nations. Also, there are other Greek words used to refer to the unending power and life of God, which I referenced above.
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,731,997 times
Reputation: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
I like ya, arguy, so I'm not saying this to condescend, or anything close to it. But have you studied this at all? It is a sad but historically verified fact that a conspiracy is exactly what happened when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible. If anyone else thinks otherwise I would like to see where they got this information as it contradicts all historic documentation that I have seen from a variety of sources.



Of course He is, and of course we aren't. But we are told God is Love...the literal embodiment of love and what we are to mimick and strive to be more like. Why then does God say forgive your enemies, over and over, whether or not they ask for it, when we are told that He will not do so Himself?
I didnt study it at all till you made me....its all Jeffs fault I studied it!!
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:16 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,731,997 times
Reputation: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
This info is from CARM, a site that I know well.

CARM argues that if aionian and related words do not mean eternal, then God cannot be eternal, for these words also describe Him. My response is that just because God is described as the God of the eons, does not mean that He is not the God who also transcends the eons. In the same way, just because He is called the God of Israel , does not also mean that He is not the God of all the other nations. Also, there are other Greek words used to refer to the unending power and life of God, which I referenced above.
I think this is where I quit beating the dead horse, I wasnt going too. honest..I just had too debate one more time....
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 3,187,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
conspiracy theory! -- I loved that, arguy! That really does capture the essence of this argument IMO!
Kay, you can laugh away history if you want, but what has happened is what happened. I can only say that you should look it up.

If Hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn’t read Greek (For example, Minucius Felix and Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated? Those early church leaders familiar with the Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible) saw universal salvation in those texts. Those who advocated Hell got it from the Latin, not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Who would more likely be correct–those who could read the original languages of the Bible or those who read a Latin translation made by one man (Jerome)?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 3,187,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
I think this is where I quit beating the dead horse, I wasnt going too. honest..I just had too debate one more time....
It's cool man...
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:29 PM
 
7,099 posts, read 27,143,372 times
Reputation: 7452
I think you have just about reduced the poor creature to hamburger.
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,672 posts, read 22,239,695 times
Reputation: 21369
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Kay, you can laugh away history if you want, but what has happened is what happened. I can only say that you should look it up.

If Hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn’t read Greek (For example, Minucius Felix and Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated? Those early church leaders familiar with the Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible) saw universal salvation in those texts. Those who advocated Hell got it from the Latin, not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Who would more likely be correct–those who could read the original languages of the Bible or those who read a Latin translation made by one man (Jerome)?
One more time... I don't have to know the "correct" translation of " hell" or the word "eternal" to read the New Testament for what is says...and what it doesn't say. We can leave out any arguments regarding words. If you read the Bible through contextually, you just can't support any other conclusion other than that our choice to affect our eternal destiny ends at death. No second chances. No do-overs.
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 3,187,840 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padgett2 View Post
I think you have just about reduced the poor creature to hamburger.
Yes, I definately have! I just don't get why those who do believe in the Bible only believe in some parts...and if I point out the sciptures that state something other than eternal punishment, suddenly you I picking and choosing...but if I point out mistranslations, they ignore them...so I feel the need to drag the bloody carcass out again and again to see if I can be given a response that makes any kind of logical AND spiritual sense...so far, to no avail.
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:33 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,731,997 times
Reputation: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padgett2 View Post
I think you have just about reduced the poor creature to hamburger.
in this case...horseburger..could I get onion with that?
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