New Evidence Supports Noahs Ark Ministries (translation, genesis, verse, children)

[NightBazaar]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Well the two links I gave should support my view. Because if you believe as some here on this post would suggest. That such a climb without oxygen is (IMPOSSIBLE). That belief of course is shown to be nothing more then fiction. Also, regular climbs are made all the time to the top of Mt. Ararat and without the use of oxygen. To suggest that the team from China could not even make it to the 12,500 foot level is total nonsense. In recent days one man who made it to the very top of the mountain is 59 years old. And his conditioning for the climb was nothing more than two weeks of swimming and repeatedly climbing a 1,000 foot hillside. He had no formal trainning in mountain climbing. It's obvious you do not have to be a highly experienced climber to climb to the top of Ararat. And that would make sense. Because the animals that left the ark were not experienced climbers either.

I think you missed the point, or are simply ignoring it. Regarding the Everest climbers, as I said they were highly experienced climbers who had spent considerable time at various levels to acclimate themselves. It's not that there's no oxygen at high altitudes. It's that it isn't as dense as at lower altitudes. Meaning the higher you go, the more difficult it is to get enough oxygen to breathe. It takes a lot of conditioning to climb Everest without a supply of oxygen.

With regard to Ararat, it's not that people can't climb it without taking along oxygen. The altitude is not as extreme as Everest, but the breathable air is thin enough that it can make such a trek a real chore. Case in point (in your own words post #130): "Well my wife and I stayed in a home in the Rocky Mountains that was built at the 8,400 foot level. After a few days my wife did get sick and we had to get off the mountain."

You mention a 59-year-old man who climbed to the top of Ararat. I'm not saying it can't be done, but who was that man? You didn't provide a link.

Going back to the Chinese NAMI team, what preparation did they make for what they are said to have done? Their clothing doesn't seem like it would provide much protection in the frigid bowels of the ice cave. Years ago, I've been inside Arnold Ice cave near Bend Oregon in the Summer, and believe me, it was really cold and slippery in there. The cave is gated and closed to the public now, primarily because of vandalism.

Considering that the Chinese team were going into a cave with no idea of what that might require, it didn't look like they had any climbing ropes, ice axes, and other gear for safety and protection to get and and out. That's not only dangerous, but it's just plain nuts. What if they had gotten part way in, began sliding downward on ice and unable to stop, only to end up falling into a deep crevass? And that's not to mention avoiding any bandit groups said to be lurking on the mountain.

As for animals from the Ark being unexperienced as climbers is concerned, not only does that fail to support your point, but maybe you should go back to some of the other Ark-related threads and have another look at some of the photos of the mountain. In some of the posts in those threads, you also pointed out tales of people climbing to a spot where the Ark was said to be seen, and spending the night in a cave. The path (or at least parts of it) to that cave, as I recall, was narrow. The individual in question was hoping to go down to where the "Ark" was located the next morning, but found it impossible to do because of a pretty good snowfall during the night. It's no mystery that weather conditions can and does change severely in just a matter of hours. And the animals all managed to get off the mountain safe and sound? I wonder how many animals ended up slipping on the rocks and plunging off the cliffs to their deaths below?

[rifleman]

I've been looking for a smilodon showing someone banging their head against a wall, NightBazaar, but with no immediate success. I'm sure I'll find it though, and it would be very appropriate now.
_______________________________________________

Logistical & Scientific Reasons NAMI™ were never on Ararat:

(All previously listed in detail, BTW):

∆ no safety equipment, or emergency tents and supplies;

∆ totally inappropriate mountaineering apparel;

∆ too short a time-frame to accomplish what they claimed to have done,;

∆ no adequate nor scientifically credible photo or video documentation;

∆ no credible scientists on the team;

∆ no follow-up proper research report documentation provided to anyone! Ever.

∆ no official government acceptance. In fact, the whole thing's now under investigation for fraud.


Ecological Reasons The Ark would never have worked: (Lordie! All this again?)

∆ could not possibly get anywhere near the necessary numbers of proto-species on board: too many (currently, there's 35+ Million species now known, and probably another 40+M as yet undiscovered);

∆ since, of course, there would be no Evolution allowed afterward. Not even a bit of good old micro-adaptation (aka: Evolution);

∆ each species would require a suitable minimum starting population to be even possibly reproductively feasible, even if re-introduced to a pristine and correct habitat with no predators, etc. Like for instance, a minimum of 50 Cape Buffalo bulls plus 50 females, or giraffes, gazelles, polar bears, whales, elephants, leopard, great apes, and so on.. Only two of each? It always makes for a fun kid's comic book version, always there's tow giraffes, two elephants and two sheep (yum!). What persistently childish nonsense, and our otherwise naive, gullible and innocent kids in Sunday School should be thus informed;

∆ could not have begun to have cared for them, or provided anywhere near sufficient food & clean water, or sanitation. Imagine the slop from 100 Cape buffalo, mingled with that from 100 elephants. and all the rest! The Horror! The Horror! (with apologies to Marlon Brando...);

∆ would not have been able to create and maintain the requisite plant ecological conditions to support the millions of plant species, with suitable artificial life, humidity, water and temperature requirements. Try to keep an orchid planting (50 plants...) alive in the dark, dank bilge of a tossing old leaking barge!;

∆ could not have provided appropriate environmental conditions: for a polar bear and a desert spider and a school of salmon and a flock of trumpeter swans and a group of loner cheetahs and jaguars and leopards (you can't just cram those bad boys into a small cage and order them to lay down and be still!).. (Lord, the mind boggles at the utter stupidity of the whole idea as "literally possible"....!);

∆ would have deposited them onto a barren, vegetation-free [all drowned] post-apocalypse world, in a place away from any one of any of the animal's habitat (essentially nothing lives at the frozen, icy weather-beaten 13,000 foot elevation of Ararat. Certainly not a good place for Amazonian parrots, jungle gibbons, gorillas, African leopards, Aussie kangaroos, etc etc etc. To push all those out the door would be to essentially murder them. Oh... such a blessed, loving God!;

∆ without power, steerage or roll and pitch control everyone on board would eventually succumb to violent motion sickness, to running aground on shoals, rocks or mountain tops. Ouch!

∆ there's absolutely no source (rational and credible at any rate) for the necessary macro-volumes of global flood-waters to first instantly appear and then miraculously disappear;

∆ the precipitation rate would be in excess of (as I recall; this may not be enough...) 12 inches an hour, for 40 says.
_________________________________________

In short, it's all [obviously, to anyone with > a grade 5 education] just a fable intended to be a guide (a poor one at that) to demo God's power.

But as an actual literal story, it's beyond the pale, and only shows the absolute lunacy of desperate literalist interpretations. (And their inability to ever concede ANYTHING...). It requires an extreme lack of critical thinking coupled with a total inability to reason things out.

Just obey the hive master's commands, and pray a lot.

[NightBazaar]

Originally Posted by rifleman

I've been looking for a smilodon showing someone banging their head against a wall, NightBazaar, but with no immediate success. I'm sure I'll find it though, and it would be very appropriate now.

Will this do?

[nana053]

Originally Posted by NightBazaar

You mention a 59-year-old man who climbed to the top of Ararat. I'm not saying it can't be done, but who was that man? You didn't provide a link.

I found the link (and it proves your point)

Mount Ararat Climb Fulfills Lifelong Dream (Slideshow) | Armenian Weekly

His preparation and conditioning proved minimal: two weeks of swimming in his pool and repeatedly climbing a 1,000-foot hillside by his home in Glendale. Admittedly, he was neither prepared nor conditioned for such a venture. That week, he drove to Mount Aragats (Armenia’s tallest mountain) and scaled 4,500 feet of it.

The first day they hiked five hours before setting camp. There waiting for them were camp tents all erected and a kitchen tent with warm food. The campground was nestled on boulders.

Day 2 proved a six-hour climb, impeded by the lack of oxygen and breathlessness. On the third day, they waited for midnight to arrive before covering the remaining distance. Severe weather caused the group to retreat and wait the next day before making the ultimate approach.

Reaching the peak was like being on top of the world.

“Conditions were really severe with wind, sleet, and cold raising havoc,” Aghabegians described. “The thin air wears you down by the hour. It is not a technical climb but the higher you go, the steeper it gets. Three members started showing signs of altitude sickness during the day. One got hit real badly.”

They supposedly did meet some people who were looking for the Ark...

[NightBazaar]

Originally Posted by nana053

I found the link (and it proves your point)

Mount Ararat Climb Fulfills Lifelong Dream (Slideshow) | Armenian Weekly

Thank you Nana. I appreciate the link. It's an interesting article and certainly a great adventure and a great accomplishment for the man.

Hmmm, I wonder why our good friend Campbell neglected to say anything about three others in the group getting altitude sickness with one becoming severely sick. Or why he skipped the part about being uncertain they even had clearance to climb the mountain and thinking that the guides paid off officials to "look the other way". Campbell also forgot to mention how the weather up there can quickly change. Oh, wait, I know why he forgot. Maybe it's because climbing Ararat isn't exactly like a walk in the park for an afternoon picnic.

From the article, it took the climbers 3 or 4 days just to reach the top. At a guess, I'd say another couple of days to descend. Although the altitude of NAMI's claim is lower than the summit, it still would've taken the Chinese team much longer than NAMI claims to reach the "Ark" site, climb around inside a freezing cave, collect samples, take some measurements, descend the mountain, and get back to the hotel before dark in time to enjoy a nice hot cup of tea.

[QuixoticHobbit]

Originally Posted by rifleman

I've been looking for a smilodon showing someone banging their head against a wall, NightBazaar, but with no immediate success. I'm sure I'll find it though, and it would be very appropriate now.
_______________________________________________

Logistical & Scientific Reasons NAMI™ were never on Ararat:

(All previously listed in detail, BTW):

∆ no safety equipment, or emergency tents and supplies;

∆ totally inappropriate mountaineering apparel;

∆ too short a time-frame to accomplish what they claimed to have done,;

∆ no adequate nor scientifically credible photo or video documentation;

∆ no credible scientists on the team;

∆ no follow-up proper research report documentation provided to anyone! Ever.

∆ no official government acceptance. In fact, the whole thing's now under investigation for fraud.


Ecological Reasons The Ark would never have worked: (Lordie! All this again?)

∆ could not possibly get anywhere near the necessary numbers of proto-species on board: too many (currently, there's 35+ Million species now known, and probably another 40+M as yet undiscovered);

∆ since, of course, there would be no Evolution allowed afterward. Not even a bit of good old micro-adaptation (aka: Evolution);

∆ each species would require a suitable minimum starting population to be even possibly reproductively feasible, even if re-introduced to a pristine and correct habitat with no predators, etc. Like for instance, a minimum of 50 Cape Buffalo bulls plus 50 females, or giraffes, gazelles, polar bears, whales, elephants, leopard, great apes, and so on.. Only two of each? It always makes for a fun kid's comic book version, always there's tow giraffes, two elephants and two sheep (yum!). What persistently childish nonsense, and our otherwise naive, gullible and innocent kids in Sunday School should be thus informed;

∆ could not have begun to have cared for them, or provided anywhere near sufficient food & clean water, or sanitation. Imagine the slop from 100 Cape buffalo, mingled with that from 100 elephants. and all the rest! The Horror! The Horror! (with apologies to Marlon Brando...);

∆ would not have been able to create and maintain the requisite plant ecological conditions to support the millions of plant species, with suitable artificial life, humidity, water and temperature requirements. Try to keep an orchid planting (50 plants...) alive in the dark, dank bilge of a tossing old leaking barge!;

∆ could not have provided appropriate environmental conditions: for a polar bear and a desert spider and a school of salmon and a flock of trumpeter swans and a group of loner cheetahs and jaguars and leopards (you can't just cram those bad boys into a small cage and order them to lay down and be still!).. (Lord, the mind boggles at the utter stupidity of the whole idea as "literally possible"....!);

∆ would have deposited them onto a barren, vegetation-free [all drowned] post-apocalypse world, in a place away from any one of any of the animal's habitat (essentially nothing lives at the frozen, icy weather-beaten 13,000 foot elevation of Ararat. Certainly not a good place for Amazonian parrots, jungle gibbons, gorillas, African leopards, Aussie kangaroos, etc etc etc. To push all those out the door would be to essentially murder them. Oh... such a blessed, loving God!;

∆ without power, steerage or roll and pitch control everyone on board would eventually succumb to violent motion sickness, to running aground on shoals, rocks or mountain tops. Ouch!

∆ there's absolutely no source (rational and credible at any rate) for the necessary macro-volumes of global flood-waters to first instantly appear and then miraculously disappear;

∆ the precipitation rate would be in excess of (as I recall; this may not be enough...) 12 inches an hour, for 40 says.
_________________________________________

In short, it's all [obviously, to anyone with > a grade 5 education] just a fable intended to be a guide (a poor one at that) to demo God's power.

And let's not forget, that the Biblical tale is a cheap retread of the original flood story told in the much earlier Sumerian texts. So, even if said mythical flood HAD indeed occurred, it would be testament to the glory and power of Anu, Enlil, Enki, Utu and the other Sumerian Gods, NOT Bible god.

[rifleman]

Those three little words, QH: "let's not forget..." seem to forgotten in any biblical literalist's interpretation of the events. Lest we forget all those species, their needs and the state of the world on disembarkation, esp. @ 13,000 ft level. Lest we forget all the logistical and permitting requirements for such an undertaking. Lest we forget the necessities of subsequent report publication and it's mandated peer review. Lest we forget reality.

It was a good link, and thx to nana053, for going where no man apparently could... Cheers to you!

This climber deserves accolades for sure; a lifelong dream! And done on a shoestring, without outside funding or permits. The brief description does raise some additional concerns; the fact the climbers had to pause en-route for weather, and the fact of the appearance of MAS (Mountain Altitude Sickness) in several of them.

Imagine taking an entire group of unprepared touristas up to even the 13,000 foot level though. As guide, would you realistically anticipate and prepare for some unpleasant contingencies? Tents and bags for an unexpected overnight (or three..) stay, the right clothing, and safety roping in caves? Plus, you know, oxygen? Just a little oxygen, just in, you know, like..."case"?

Apparently "The Parachute" did not. He was probably too busy counting his drakmas or €uros or whatever.

In My Never So Humble but Scientific Opinion , if they had actually tried to ascend to this "site" with any intent of honest & realistic scientific rigor, rational expectations and professional caution, but with this patently unprepared group, there would have been a later worldwide media newsflash about 3 or 5 of them having to be helo-evac'd or taken out on donkey, suffering from a host of altitude or thermal maladies. Or even deaths.

As it is, this "amazing discovery, near-100% sure!" has never made it to even the 15th page of well, anything. Ever. Probably because they've never released a proper report [or even an interim one] outlining everything they supposedly found, sampled and thus accomplished.

Possibly they don't want to make any incriminating admissions, a confession as it were, of their illegal activities, absent government permits or required safety accomodations.

Chips, do your thing!

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by rifleman

You are so predictable. Thanks again for making my point! (BTW, even a good used car salesman can't sell a beater that's leaking it's fluids all over the buyer's foot, as your late model clunker is doing...)

And, to set the record straight; I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to just get there. Never said that. I did say that that:

√ they were obviously never there, equipped as they were, and;

√ they certainly didn't/couldn't have done the things they claim to have done...

√ in the time they said they spent (less than one day on site), and

√ under the weather conditions they said they "endured".

Don't avoid or confuse the issues with false science or partial quotes or downright prevarication.

Making it to the top of Ararat as your only goal, versus taking a group of inexperienced, totally non-acclimatized touristas (did you not see them getting out of that van? And did they all swim for a month? Nope.) up there for a half day "expedition", then accomplishing everything they say they did, and then making the ABSOLUTE CLAIM that they had indeed ["we're almost 100% sure! So... send money soon!"] found The Ark, is quite another matter.

Someone doing it one slow, step at a time, versus all the effort to clamber about, unropped & thus unsecured, in an previously unexplored ice cave? (BTW, did your Ararat topper not carry any Oxygen? Link? Proof? It is, after all, into the so-called death zone elevation. And did he go in a windbreaker, with a drooping half-empty backpack on his back? Photos?

The one guy I easily found was Muhammed Oraz, an experienced climber who did indeed scale Ararat, but with oxygen. His non-oxygen climbs were on other peaks. Another link perhaps? Another guy? Let me/us inquisitive types know so we can read all about it. Still doesn't apply to an entire inexperienced group, who then also did a complete site review and documentation in windbreakers.... what a laugh. Truly)

Well anyhow, you know all my points, and of course you won't begin to address them on a point-by-point basis, and we all know why.

Thanks. You next demo scheduled for? Later this afternoon? I'll be waiting, and let's not forget the general audience. They're waiting too.

PS: Stay well. I need you.

rifleman, most of your arguements are based on nonsense. You look at one picture of them and decide they were not equipped as they should be. You say they could not do the things they said they did based on what? Yes they spent one day at the actual site, it's obvious they spent more time on the mountain itself and that is why they had a base camp. They are explorers, and have been doing this for some years now. So for you to suggest they are inexperienced would be just more nonsense. I am adressing your points, and that lack any real credibility. The fact is there are certain times when even wind breakers are not needed to be worn during certain days, or certain hours of the day on Ararat. Their video shows us they had the equipment for the task when they were lowered down into the structure. If they were trying to show us the full range of their equipment, now doubt we would of saw much more. Yet they were focused on what they found, and not their equipment. And I did try to leave a link about the 59 year old that made it to the top of Ararat without oxygen. Yet they link would not work. I will try again.

PS: And thankyou, I will try to stay as well as I can. I don't want you to be surrounded by a bunch of yes men here.LOL

As you can see in the link below, these people are making a climb to the top of Ararat as well. And you will note they are dressed about the same as the team from China. And you will also note not one of them appear to be useing oxygen. So are we to assume this is just another fake picture?
rifleman, it's time for you to wake up and smell the coffee. What the team from China did is not imposible. You want to believe it is. And that is because what they found up there may really get in the way of your worldview.

http://asbarez.com/85163/another-ara...aches-the-peak

[mikebnllnb]

To believe the story of Noah is a historical event is the height of delusion.
I can knock many holes in the story but just answer two questions without magic or miracles. Where did all the water come from and where did it all go?
And how did Noah and his family and all the animals survive after all the earth's vegetation was destroyed after being submerged beneath leagues and leagues of salt water.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by mikebnllnb

To believe the story of Noah is a historical event is the height of delusion.
I can knock many holes in the story but just answer two questions without magic or miracles. Where did all the water come from and where did it all go?
And how did Noah and his family and all the animals survive after all the earth's vegetation was destroyed after being submerged beneath leagues and leagues of salt water.

The earths outer curst collapsed and the existing water covered the earth. Some in science now tells us there is a least 10 times the water trapped in the earth, then will be found in all of earths seas. Also as evidence that such a flood has occured, is the fact that man-made structures are now being found below the oceans. According to marine archeologist Dr. Nick Flemming, at least 500 submerged sites containing the remains of some form of man-made structure have been found around the globe. And nearly a fifth of these sites are more then 3,000 years old.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/8965