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Now I know this is a bit off the forum topic, and perhaps better belongs over in Politics, but I'm a bit confused, frankly. Honest, no joking right now. And... it does pertain to the religious component of Politics.
I just received a political blog that makes the point that this country was formed by (for the most part...) claimed-devout, practicing Christians. They were fleeing religious and political tyranny, and the First Amendment does prohibit the formation of a state-sponsored religion. But what about the claim from my blogger friend that the entire governmental formulation, the basis of this country's birth, and the claimed Rights of all it's citizens are but extensions of "God The Creator's" ideals? That He, not they, granted such rights, since only He could have thought them up.
By the way; remember George H.W. Bush who said, in so many words, that non-Christians should not be considered citizens of the USofA and should leave? (Is this on YouTube? I'll try to find it.) A fascinating perspective, frankly, but it also deeply frightens me, really! Why? I'm a legally immigrated ex-Canuck who swore allegiance to the flag, etc., but I don't recall pledging allegiance to God. Maybe I did, or perhaps I kept silent during that part... If so, perhaps I'm an interloper, technically "an illegal alien".
Point is, back in the mid-1770s, literally everyone claimed to be a Christian, practicing or not, since to deny that, or to proclaim that you were, say, an atheist (horrors!), would have landed you, at the least, in the cultural hooskow or town square stock-a-blocks for egg-tossing or whipping Social dis-allowance and ostracization. Societal ex-communication. Snubbing at the town hardware store for sure. So, in practical terms, no-one would have dared step back from the standard religions of the day.
So. My Honest Question: is this wonderful country, with all it's flaws and wonders, in the eyes of Christians, a mandated Christian country, or does that First Amendment (sorta well protected by the Second, BTW) allow me to live in peace? Or, in some fantasy new-world USA, where the Christian Coalition comes into full military and social power, do I have to bow down to God, hat and heart in hand? Subjugated to things which do not "resonate" with my mind, education or thinking?
Or is this truly The Land of The Free, where an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Sihk or Hindu can walk tall and proud?
Awaiting your answers with trembling trepidation, bags partly packed...
I know the Canadian flag exists for confronted vigilantism. But does the American flag so exist? It seems that it's physical presence can not be much different at times to it's miraculous lacked as mere existent for It. The pledge just needs to be composed: maybe re-composed.
There are no principles in the Bible or Christianity that promote any of the freedoms and ideals that this country was founded upon. Least of all, freedom of religion and speech.
There are no principles in the Bible or Christianity that promote any of the freedoms and ideals that this country was founded upon. Least of all, freedom of religion and speech.
Nuff said.
Not so fast, my friend. Christians are instructed to recognize governing authority, pay taxes, & take care of the poor.
No, I didn't ptsum. It's participation in the makeup of our formal US Constitution is/was invaluable, though there are many here who would deny that contribution. You know why; it having originated with "them danged savage redskinz!" The only good "In-Gin" etc. etc.
(Say... Did I tell you [I did, I think, mention this to Fullback one long evening ago..] my long-standing waking dream of taking the first available time machine back to about 3 months prior to the landing of the Mayflower (to allow for suitable for training...), with a few cases of M-16s complete with Type III Trijicon night sights, and then "donate" those useful tools of boarding-party repulsion to our grateful First Nations bretheren-slash-Immigrant-greeting party? Another happy fantasy, for another time,. but you get my drift... and, as you also know, I'm a durned white guy!).
But my question here is, how does the average Joe, or Jane, and especially the Christian ones, perceive the existing formal US Constitution? A primarily Christian document, written to preserve a Christian oligarchy, driven by unalterable Christian references and assumed requirements for beliefs, behaviors and loyalties? I've been confused by all the commentary and assertions here and on my friend's recent blog. To my simplistic mind to date, I've always assumed we had freedom of, but also from, religion's involvement, but perhaps that's erroneous.
I'm needing to respond back to him, and frankly, as I've said, I'm just not clear on this.
This is what's troubling my mind. I need to know what's in the cards and heavens.
Not so fast, my friend. Christians are instructed to recognize governing authority, pay taxes, & take care of the poor.
Romans 13
Matthew 22
Romans 12:18
Luke 19
1 Peter 2
Uhh, and?
You would have to do the first two of those things anyway. And none of those are freedoms or principles this country was founded upon.
And it's rather interesting that the conservative/religious right is always in opposition to any "socialist" programs aimed to helping the poor in this country...
Hi Rifleman; I'm a 10th generation American, had 2 ancestors who were fighting in that Revolution of ours. The history is being a bit skewed here on you. Yes many did come here for religious freedom in the early days, but many also came to improve their fortunes, both literally and figuratively. The early Spanish who colonized parts of this nation notably FL and CA, came here unabashedly in search of GOLD, and wealth, many of the other Europeans came simply because their prospects for a reasonably good life in Europe were pretty much nil; they were second sons, and the elders inherited the family land/fortune, or their families were just dirt poor and they'd heard there was land for the having and developing if they came here. So there were many reasons people did come here even in the very early days.
Jumping ahead, a bit, in the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that our unalienable rights were endowed by the Creator, no specific religion named. When you were saying the Pledge of Allegiance you were saying "one nation, under God, indivisible" were you not? The words "under God" were inserted back in the early '50s; I was in second or third grade at the time, and remember them doing so. Also our national motto is "In God we trust" contrary to Obama's notion that it's "e pluribus unum", which he's mostly turned into "e unum pluribus" anyway.
1st Amendment gets misinterpreted, especially by the ACLU and other athiest groups, to mean there's NO religion {except Islam now} allowed to be expressed anywhere publicly. That's NOT what it means; remember, your ancestors and many of ours came from Europe, to the US and Canada in the early days, and in Europe, they were just coming out of the strife between the Roman Church and the Protestant movement, especially in England, what with all that turmoil, and wanted to avoid that here, to NOT have a Church of America like the Church of England or like Islam is the national religion in many middle eastern nations. So what they wrote is that there was to be no national church or single religion set above the others; that we should all be free to believe and worship as we see fit. Now while that would leave room for Muslims to practice their religion freely, many of them are UNWILLING to allow others to do the same, and there's the problem with them now. religiously speaking.
America was founded by GODLY men,NOT all Christians, who based our Constitution on Judeo-Christian principles, but this is not and never was a Christian nation, contrary to what many are claiming now. Neither is it or shall it be, while I have any say,a Muslim nation or any other specific religion. I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution over 40 years ago, and that oath still holds good. But what the Constitution says, and what many today are trying to claim it says are often 2 very different things. So I hope this helps sort out your question for you.
There are no principles in the Bible or Christianity that promote any of the freedoms and ideals that this country was founded upon. Least of all, freedom of religion and speech.
Nuff said.
As long as those who used the bible as a guide were running things women weren't allowed to vote and Blacks were afraid to even show up in town on election day. Ever heard of the Klan?
As far as this being a Christian nation:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
That is article 11 from the treaty with Tripoli ratified by the U S senate and signed by president John Adams. How much plainer does it have to be?
Does it even matter? For the sake of argument, lets say that every founding father, every government official back in 177X, and every single person who stepped off of the Mayflower was a devout southern baptist.
So what? It is now 234 years later. Many people who are descended from those original citizens back in 1776 are no longer christian. Many, many others have come into the country since that time and been given citizenship. They were not christian when they immigrated, and are not now.
We are a fundamentally different country now than we were back then. Choices have been made that has taken the country into a secular (albeit not secular enough for my tastes) direction.
Just as we no longer have slavery, women have had their right to vote recognized, and we have expanded the concept of taxation for the common good to include highway projects, telecommunication infrastructure and education, I would say that whatever the original stance on religion in this country, the reality is that it is different now, and we should recognize that.
If we do not treat the constitution as a living document, and only deify the founding fathers, this ultimately leads to absurd conclusions.
Imagine. The second amendment only applying to muskets. The first amendment only applying to actual speech, or newspapers, but not radio, tv or internet. The government being unable to fund the airforce because airplanes did not exist back in the 18th century.
My thought is that we throw out original intent and get on with our lives and civilization as it is now. Use the constitution as a framework certainly, but lets live in the real world.
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Christian origins of the US?
