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"The use of the plural, 'let us make man', is the plural of Majesty, royal commands being conveyed in the first person plural."
-- Pentateuch and Haftorahs, second edition, Dr. J.H. Hertz, C.H., late Chief Rabbi of the British Empire, London, Sociono Press, 1960.
OH PLEASE, you cannot use the Plural of Majesty arguement. And that is because this device did not even exist until after the Old Testament was finished. Many of the early church fathers never even heard of "PLURAL OF MAJESTY" And in fact, the earliest we find this poetic device being used was in the 4th century. And that was during the time of the Byzantine era. However, when you have no other explanation, I guess any straw will do. Trying to take a modern day poetic device and force fit it into an ancient text, is just wrong.
Well, isn't that special? You use Jews for Jesus to make a case in this thread. If you were trying to discredit yourself, you couldn't possibly have done a better job.
So Jewish people that give their life to Jesus are not Jews anymore? And what do you base that on?
And yet, the God of the Old Testament tells us the Jewish people turned their back on Him. And if God is one, why does the Book of Genesis clearly show us that God was speaking to others when He created man?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let (US) make man in (OUR) image, after (OUR) likeness:
More so among the secular than among the observant.
I would say more among the elderly than the young, more among the less educated than the more educated, etc. Much bigger than differences between run of the mill secular or Reform jews, and run of the mill modern Orthodox. I have definitely though seen and heard more bigoted things among the Haredi, including Chabad and among other Hasidim, and, at the other extreme really committed anti bigotry among reconstructionists. Note, bigotry toward generic african americans can be compatible with eager acceptance of gerim and other Jews of color.
OH PLEASE, you cannot use the Plural of Majesty arguement. And that is because this device did not even exist until after the Old Testament was finished. Many of the early church fathers never even heard of "PLURAL OF MAJESTY" And in fact, the earliest we find this poetic device being used was in the 4th century. And that was during the time of the Byzantine era. However, when you have no other explanation, I guess any straw will do. Trying to take a modern day poetic device and force fit it into an ancient text, is just wrong.
Heres Rashi
"We learn from here the humility of the Holy One, Blessed is He. Since man is in the likeness of the angels, and they would be jealous of him, for this reason, He consulted them. "
or, as Rabbi Frand puts it
The pasuk [verse] says, "Let us make man" (Bereshis 1:26). The Medrash comments on that G-d "consulted" with the ministering angels in Heaven before creating Adam. G-d wished to teach us "Derech Eretz" [ethical behavior] that it is appropriate for people in power to consult with their subordinates even though the decision making power rests totally with the one in power.
Last edited by brooklynborndad; 03-15-2011 at 12:20 PM..
OH PLEASE, you cannot use the Plural of Majesty arguement. And that is because this device did not even exist until after the Old Testament was finished. Many of the early church fathers never even heard of "PLURAL OF MAJESTY" And in fact, the earliest we find this poetic device being used was in the 4th century. And that was during the time of the Byzantine era. However, when you have no other explanation, I guess any straw will do. Trying to take a modern day poetic device and force fit it into an ancient text, is just wrong.
In support of your quote
Quote:
II. Christ is the identical image of God, angels are not
A. Jesus Christ is our co-creator who is the exact image of God.
"see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " 2 Corinthians 4:4
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. " Colossians 1:15
"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, " Hebrews 1:3
B. There is no reason to suggest the plural pronoun is the "plural of Majesty", since both Jesus and the Father are described as having the same image.
Let me see if I have this strait:
Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and sits a the right hand of God.
BUT Jews believe that he has not come yet.
So wouldnt that mean he would still be in Heaven with His Heavenly Father God?
BUT Jews believe that he has not come yet.
So wouldnt that mean he would still be in Heaven with His Heavenly Father God?
One traditional jewish belief is that he is alive, living in obscurity, and his "coming" will be his appearance out of obscurity
"R. Joshua ben Levi [asked Elijah, the prophet who it is said will be the harbinger of the messianic age] "When will the Messiah come?" "Go and ask him himself." "Where is he sitting?" "At the gates of Rome." "What will identify him?" "He is sitting among the poor lepers; while all of them untie all [their bandages] at once, and rebandage them together, he unties and rebandages each separately, [before treating the next], saying 'I might be needed, so I must not be delayed.' ""
Other traditions (IIUC) say he is yet to be born. He is no more sitting wtih God than any other yet to be born person. You are taking for granted the view of the messiah as a special creature - rather than as a son of David who claim the throne of Israel, which was all that Moshiach meant originally, though as we see from the above quote, it had already in the time of the talmud become something more.
lol sorry but a Jews for Jesus video is hardly something I would take seriously....
I would take seriously a rabbi, Jewish scholar, etc.....
In 1506 Alfonso de Zamora-Rabbi publicly declared his faith in Messiah Jesus. And because of his knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Chaldean, and other languages he help develop a six-volume multilingual work known as the Polyglot Bible.
In 1530 Immanuel Tremellius who was a Hebrew Scholar and University Professor came to faith in the Messiah around 1530 and became Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge University. He also produced the Latin Old Testament that is published in Frankfurt in 1570s and London in 1580.
About forty or fifty other prominent Jewish believers who gave their life to Jesus will be found in the link below.
And G-d said: 'Let us make man'" (Berei**** 1:26). With whom did He take counsel?
Rabbi Ammi said: He took counsel with His own heart. He was like a king who built a palace with the counsel of an architect. When he saw the palace, it did not please him. At whom was he indignant? Was it not at the architect? Hence, "and it grieved Him at His heart" (Berei**** 6:6) [with which He had taken counsel at the making of man].
Rabbi Hanina said: He consulted the ministering angels.
Rabbi Berechiah said: When the Holy One was about to create Adam, he saw both the righteous and the wicked who were to issue from him. So He said: If I create him, wicked men will issue from him; if I do not create him, how are righteous men to be born?
What did the Holy One do? He diverted the way of the wicked from before His sight, partnered the quality of mercy with Himself, [saying to it, "Let us make man], and then created him.
Rabbi Simon said: When the Holy One was about to create Adam, the ministering angels formed themselves into groups and companies, some of them saying, "Let him be created," while others urged, "Let him not be created."
Thus it is written, "Love and truth fought together, righteousness and peace combated each other" (Tehillim 85:11).
Love said, "Let him be created, because he will perform acts of love."
Truth said, "Let him not be created, because all of him will be falsehood."
Righteousness said, "Let him be created, because he will do righteous deeds."
Peace said, "Let him not be created, because he will be all strife."
What did the Holy One do?
He took truth and cast it to the ground, as is said, "Thou cast down truth to the ground" (Daniel 8:12).
The ministering angels dared say to the Holy One, "Master of the universe, why do You humiliate Your seal? Let truth arise from the earth."
Hence it is written, "Let truth spring up from the earth." (Psalm 85:12)
The elder Rabbi Huna of Sepphoris said: While the ministering angels were arguing with one another and disputing with one another, the Holy One created Adam and then said: What are you arguing about? Man is already made.
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