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Old 02-11-2011, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Neither here nor there
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"Jews" are the descendants of Abraham through Sarah and can be considered a widely dispersed "tribe", if you will. (Jews often refer to world Jewry as "the tribe".) "Judaism" is the religion of the tribe. Traditionally, a "Jew" is any child born to a Jewish mother. Whether or not that child is raised in the faith of Judaism is another matter. A Jew may convert to another religion but his/her genetic inheritance will not be changed.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Judaism awaits the Messiah. Christianity says that Jesus is the Messiah. You may not see a problem there...but I do.
OK, what exactly is the problem you see?

What exactly do you have to believe in order to be a Jew?

I guess you have to believe every word in the Old Testament. But is there a rule that you are not allowed to believe anything else?

And if there is such a rule, who made that rule? Was it given by god after the Old Testament was finalized?

Or was it a rule set down by men, like the Catholic rule that you should not eat meat on Friday. Most people don't take such rules very seriously.
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:10 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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I would have to say you probably can't be of Judaism and Christianity at the same time. Traditionally this was generally Christian understanding too and even "Judaizing" was discouraged. An early exception to that were "The Ebionites" who deemed themselves to be Christian and Jewish. I think they may have even seen Jesus as more like "The Final Prophet" and rejected him as divine.

Which leads to the only case I could see possible confusion. Could someone be of a kind of "Unitarian Christianity", that sees Christ as the ultimate role-model or even Messiah yet not divine, while being of Judaism? I might have, at one time, thought that was possible but when I look into it that doesn't even seem too plausible. Judaism isn't built on rejecting Christ or anything, but as it's been defined since the second century or earlier it doesn't seem to allow much for him as even a fully-human Messiah. I'm not even sure it would allow for Jesus as a "great Prophet" as I think Judaism teaches the prophetic age ended with Malachi, but I might be mistaken there.

I would think a person could be culturally and ethnically Jewish while being Christian. Traditional Judaism may have deemed apostates "dead" and all, but I don't think most modern Jews are like that. If a Jewish convert to Christianity remained very active in Jewish causes and charities I imagine they could still be somewhat embraced by their community. I think Benjamin Disraeli is still, sort-of, embraced by some Jewish conservatives as I think he did try to better the lot of the Jewish people to some extent and defended them. Jewish Christians who died in the Holocaust seem to cause some controversy, but I think there's a willingness to embrace say Edith Stein so long as you assert that she died for being Jewish and not for being a Catholic in the Netherlands. (Which is probably correct, to an extent, but the Catholic Church in the Netherlands was fairly defiant of the Nazis. They punished Jewish converts for that the most, but her being attacked for the Dutch Bishops actions is plausible.)
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Thomas, that was a very well-written and informative post. Thanks.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,336,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunucu Beach View Post
"Jews" are the descendants of Abraham through Sarah and can be considered a widely dispersed "tribe", if you will. (Jews often refer to world Jewry as "the tribe".) "Judaism" is the religion of the tribe. Traditionally, a "Jew" is any child born to a Jewish mother. Whether or not that child is raised in the faith of Judaism is another matter. A Jew may convert to another religion but his/her genetic inheritance will not be changed.
This is a good way to put it and when the old question arises, "Is Judaism a race or a religion?" I always feel the wrong question will never get the right answer.

Judaism is best described as a tribe. It is a people with a shared worldview of which race (descent) and religion are a part but not the whole. Just like someone can be a German but not a Christian, or Chinese, but not a communist. In fact, I would say that it is fair to describe a lot of nationalities as tribes, with the fact that nations have become states something that clouds the issue.

The thing about tribes, it should be noted, is that they are based on a genetic community, but not genetically exclusive. Thus, an outsider can, theoretically, be accepted into the tribe.

For example, in Judaism, entrance to the tribal community is through conversion to the religion. Entrance into to a 'national' tribe is through adoption of it language, history, ethics, and acquiring its citizenship.
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
What if a bona-fide Jew decides to believe in Jesus. In other words, he accepts all of the Christian teachings about Jesus.

Does that mean he loses his claim to be Jewish?

Is there anything is Jewish theology that prohibits him from believing in Jesus?
How can you believe that a messiah is going to come someday while at the same believe that he was already here?
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,513 posts, read 84,688,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Judaism awaits the Messiah. Christianity says that Jesus is the Messiah. You may not see a problem there...but I do.
Dang it, should have read Fred's post before I posted mine.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,266,317 times
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Believing that Jesus was the Messiah is faaaaaaaaaaaar from the only difference between Judaism and Christianity, and it's kind of insulting to insinuate that it is.

In a nutshell, Judaism is a religion that emphasizes DOING rather than BELIEVING. Christianity seems to be the other way around, i.e. you can be the worst person on Earth but as long as you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, you're somehow square with G-d.

As a Jew I find that utterly bizarre.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:30 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,040,720 times
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Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
Believing that Jesus was the Messiah is faaaaaaaaaaaar from the only difference between Judaism and Christianity, and it's kind of insulting to insinuate that it is.

In a nutshell, Judaism is a religion that emphasizes DOING rather than BELIEVING. Christianity seems to be the other way around, i.e. you can be the worst person on Earth but as long as you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, you're somehow square with G-d.

As a Jew I find that utterly bizarre.


lol me too!!!!
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:31 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,040,720 times
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Originally Posted by Cunucu Beach View Post
"Jews" are the descendants of Abraham through Sarah and can be considered a widely dispersed "tribe", if you will. (Jews often refer to world Jewry as "the tribe".) "Judaism" is the religion of the tribe. Traditionally, a "Jew" is any child born to a Jewish mother. Whether or not that child is raised in the faith of Judaism is another matter. A Jew may convert to another religion but his/her genetic inheritance will not be changed.

A Jew is also one who converts through the process and rituals of conversion to Judaism.
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