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Old 02-23-2011, 03:06 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,203,170 times
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Originally Posted by fractured_kidult
Quote:
So, why is it that some people still think the bible is 100% fact? Most Christians think that the bible is a great historical reference, when in fact it is a terrible one.
Somehow I find this question as relevant as asking why parables are fiction?
I mean for a parable to work it isn't necessary for it to be non-fiction.
So I guess that for the Bible to work it isn't necessary to be historical fact either.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fractured_kidult View Post
At this point we know that the bible is not accurate in its history events. That does not mean that the history in the bible didnt happen, just that it might have happened differently or at a different time than stated in the bible.
What I'm tying to get at here is that if the Bible says that, for example, Joshua made the walls of Jericho fall by blowing a trumpet but when we look at the history of Jericho we find that the city was destroyed hundreds of years before Joshua and by the normal methods of warfare at the time, then we can't say that the Bible is historical fact because the destruction of Jericho did not happen as the Bible describes. Yes, the city of Jericho was destroyed, that would be fact but the Bible's description of the destruction is false...not historically accurate.

So the conclusion can only be that the Bible cannot be historical FACT....would you not agree? That is what you proposed in your OP....I am agreeing with you.

Last edited by Rafius; 02-23-2011 at 04:03 AM..
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,888,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well the problem with your arguement is that Peter actually saw the evidence. He saw the works of Christ that were supernatural. Those who believed that Hirohito of Japan was a God, did so based on blind faith. And there was no supernatural evidence showing those blind faith believers that he was God. Over the years the God of the Bible Jesus Christ has shown me the evidence of His reality. And He did this in supernatural ways. My belief in Christ has nothing to do with the numbers of people who follow Him. It has everything to do with the encounters I have actually had with Him.
Q: how do you know, Tom? How much time have you spent in Japan? I worked there many times, and did discuss their religion and even the touchy subject of WW-II with some of my friends there. The people of the time had, in fact, been shown many examples of Hirohito's divine communications.

Your beliefs, and those of countless millions of Christians, are based solely on what you and they think you've all experienced, not necessarily what did. My other post, about perceptions and recollections, proves that point. Christianity is no different that what happened in Japan; just like Hirohito's minions. Why else would young naive kids allow themselves to be bolted into a Kamikazi fighter plane and go willingly to their godly and glorious deaths?

You know not of what you speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fractured_kidult View Post
I only have one issue with this. You say the bible says what it says and that is all. There is no underlining meaning in the words on the pages. Am I right?

(etc etc)

1) So to say that the Bible could not be another form of that is false. It very well could be symbolism mixed with some straight forward reading.


2) The written and spoken word does not just have to mean what the word means. It can and often does have a hidden meaning, sometimes just under the surface and other times it is too deep for most people to understand.
You seem to be making our points on your own, and yet then arguing against yourself. In your own words, the bible may well contain things that are simply metaphorical, and not historically accurate or literal. Like that bug-infested Noah's Ark fable. Easily proven to have NOT ever happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Believe it or not, I take part in this forum and ask questions out of honest curiosity. Thus far, and in the vast majority of cases, it's proven to basically be a waste of time due to an apparent unwillingness to provide honest and concise answers or engage in honest, concise back-and-forth dialog.
Rubbish. Provably incorrect. You behave just like a kid who lost the game, and then takes his marbles and stomps off the schoolyard!

You, sir, for all your claimed open-minded curiosity, refuse to answer questions all the itme. Just go back a few pages on this very thread. You know what will happen if you actually engage in open logical debate.

You guys ar truly a hoot, I'll tell you. You don't see the hypocrisy here, or you think the rest of us are that stupid? Again: funny!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
You made the claims - you back them up. This would mean answering my questions which you won't do, I can only conclude, because an honest answer to my questions would undermine your arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Oh pleeeeaaase!!!

...but I have backed them up. Please point out what questions I have not addressed. You asked me to give you some examples and I did so. I am now waiting for you to provide, with verifiable evidence, the time period when Egypt was a desolate wasteland for 40 years.

(rflmn's note: then follows several valid questions for tm, which so far he has ignored.)

Your posts are here for all to see. You have not debunked my claims. All you have done is claim that the flood was 'symbolic' or 'it may not have been global', or this or that may not have happened in the way the Bible claims....all contrary to what the Bible says. You have claimed 'symbolism', metaphor, poetry' etc but nothing of substance, nothing that you can back up.

I have asked you to explain just how, if the flood was not global, how all life on the planet was wiped out. You haven't addressed that just like you haven't addressed anything else I have posted. You have just spluttered and blathered on about 'symbolism, metaphor and poetry' and of course, the apologists favourite....'interpretation'..

Produce your evidence to show that I'm wrong. Produce your evidence that the Egyptians were wiped out. Produce your evidence that the flood was only local. You can't can you? All you can do is claim that your opponent is avoiding your questions when everyone can clearly see that I have taken you on and soundly beaten you. You have no answers...only blather!
Nicely put, and on top of that, it's documented. He does think we're stupid, Rafi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Humans can only keep up to around 5000 years of written history, while there's no specific years recorded in Noah's story. As a result, unbroken Egytian record proves none.

"No evidence for a global flood such that it didn't happen" is a logically flawed statement. If something is not evident which means "we don't know if it happened" instead of "we know that it didn't happen".

Atheists tend to fall for logical holes.
What? We can only "keep" only 5000 years of history? You mean we only have 5000 years on the Christian books, I'll assume.

Please read the Chinese accounts. Far more advanced writing and illustrations, and yup, it absolutely covers right across the time period of the supposed flood time-frame. It's certainly odd they didn't notice that their entire culture and physical plant had been wiped out. Ditto for all the other cultures on this planet: they were unaware of the water rising around their feet and, oh yeah, that 900 inches per hour of precip.....

As for the biblical hypothesis that there was a total, inundating global flood, I'll ask back: are you a field-experienced hydrologist or geologist? Just curious, since we geologists can quite easily see past events accurately recorded in sediments, rock formations, ice cores, dated samples, lake and oceanic bottom layers, etc. etc.

Hypotheses create predictions. We go look. If we do indeed find the predicted consequences, and understand that they could only have gotten there (or, often as importantly, not there) by some hypothesized event, then we can prove things did, or did not, happen.

Fact: there's no evidence for a global inundating flood a mere 2500 years ago. Not to mention that it would have ended life on this planet for literally millenia, and that there's no possible source of water for such volumes, not the means to precipitate or flow it into existence, nor get rid of it later in a matter of a few weeks.

No single family group of men could possibly have re-populated the world, in different races of people, to the current 6.5+B population in that period of time, nor all the other living organisms we have identified. Finally, yes; we do have history from China, Japan and others that cover in detail the time from about 8000 years through to the present time. Certainly for 2500 years ago.

Sorry; ancient fables don't stand up too well to simple logical questioning. The two alternates are NOT comparable in credibility. It's not atheists who fall into logical holes: it's the total lack of logical follow-up and ability to honestly answer questions by IDT Christians that is very persistent and obvious here.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:05 AM
 
1,780 posts, read 2,347,371 times
Reputation: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
What I'm tying to get at here is that if the Bible says that, for example, Joshua made the walls of Jericho fall by blowing a trumpet but when we look at the history of Jericho we find that the city was destroyed hundreds of years before Joshua and by the normal methods of warfare at the time, then we can't say that the Bible is historical fact because the destruction of Jericho did not happen as the Bible describes. Yes, the city of Jericho was destroyed, that would be fact but the Bible's description of the destruction is false...not historically accurate.

So the conclusion can only be that the Bible cannot be historical FACT....would you not agree? That is what you proposed in your OP....I am agreeing with you.
I would agree that it is not historical fact. Still an interesting read.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
He does think we're stupid, Rafi!
It's a real mystery to me how people can write here, for all to see, that something like Noah's deluge or Egypt's 40 year desolation is symbolic, metaphor or poetry and then....still claim that the Bible is historical fact. Just how does that work????
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by fractured_kidult View Post
I would agree that it is not historical fact.
Indeed it isn't. Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would "be no more forever," but, to the embarrassment of Bible inerrantists, it just didn't happen that way. Tyre existed after Ezekiel in the days of the alleged Jesus, who "withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon" at one time during his personal ministry (Matt. 15:21), and it existed in the time of the Apostle Paul, who, returning from one of his missionary journeys, stopped there, found disciples, and tarried with them seven days (Acts 21:3). I wonder how they managed to do that if Tyre was to be destroyed to such an extent that "though you be looked for, you will never be found." Tyre still exists today, as anyone able to read a map can verify. Just one more nail in the coffin for claims that 'the Bible is historical fact'.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:54 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,620,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
...but I have backed them up. (...and other assorted "blather...")
Your response from post #15:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation for his failure to destroy Tyre. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Can you point out when Egypt was ever so desolate and wasted that neither man or beast passed through it?


Then perhaps we could go on to this Bible flood which the Bible dates to around 2300 B.C.E. If we look at the list of recorded Egyptian Pharaohs we see........


Teti - 2345BCE - 2333 BCE
Pepi I - 2332BCE - 2283 BCE

Nemtyemsaf Merenre - 2283BCE - 2278 BCE.

Pepi II - 2278BC - 2184 BCE


Perhaps you could explain how Pepi I managed to reign and live right through the flood period of around 2300 BCE?
It's certainly comes as no surprise that you would like me to accept your presumptions/assumptions and just move forward. One problem, this isn't Burger King...you can't have it 'your way, right away.'

Presumptions:

That the 40 years mentioned are to be taken literally.

That the flood dates to 2300 BC. (You responded with the link to AIG but failed to answer why you appear to agree with the asserted accuracy of the chronologists. (I find it interesting that you folks are fine with providing links to AIG but protest vigorously when some forlorn YEC'er attempts to do the same thing)

Following the time of Ezekiel's prophesy, that there could never have been any 40 year (supposing the 40 years to be literal years) period in which the specified portion of territory was left uninhabited and desolate as described in the prophesy.

That the pharaohs you list actually lived and ruled during the dates indicated.

That the Genesis flood was global.



I gather from your statements thus far that you believe it's somehow outrageous and unfair for me to question any of your presumptions. If such is the case, what would prevent me from making all sorts of assertions based of various assumptions/presumptions and then forbidding you to question any of them? Now that would make for a really great discussion. Again, keep in mind that you are the one making all the claims, presumptions and opinionated assertions - you may not like it, but the burden is on you to back up your "blather."

Instead, and typically, you try to make it personal while engaging in obstinate obfuscation tactics and wordy posts designed to misdirect and muddy the water. Same old $hit, different day.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
It's certainly comes as no surprise that you would like me to accept your presumptions/assumptions and just move forward. One problem, this isn't Burger King...you can't have it 'your way, right away.'
Clearly the response of someone who is stumped for an answer.

Quote:
Presumptions:

That the 40 years mentioned are to be taken literally.
So perhaps you would explain just how you decide what is to be taken literally and what isn't. What set of special rules do you have that allow you to decide. Presumably you think that the flood and the 40 years are not to be taken literally but the crucifixion and resurrection are. How do you decided this? The Bible says, clearly and plainly that the desolation will last for 40 years. It says clearly and plainly that this will happen at the time of the Pharaohs and it says clearly and plainly that Nebby will be the instigator of the destruction.

I have given you the verifiable evidence that shows it never happened. It is not for me to keep presenting you with more and more evidence to prove what has already been proven. Now it is your turn to refute the evidence I have presented. You haven't done so because you can't. All you can do is keep claiming that various events that the Bible claims happened did not happen....that they are symbolic, metaphor, poetry or not to be taken literally. So, what I would like you to do is explain how the bible can be historical fact when various events described within it are symbolic, metaphor, poetry and not to be taken literally.

Quote:
That the flood dates to 2300 BC. (You responded with the link to AIG but failed to answer why you appear to agree with the asserted accuracy of the chronologists).
Then it is now up to YOU to explain why the chronology is wrong and tell us what date YOU think this flood was.

Quote:
Following the time of Ezekiel's prophesy, that there could never have been any 40 year (supposing the 40 years to be literal years) period in which the specified portion of territory was left uninhabited and desolate as described in the prophesy.
I have told you why it never happened. All you have to do is look at the recorded history of Egypt and that of her neighbours. It's now your turn to prove that written history wrong.

Quote:
That the pharaohs you list actually lived and ruled during the dates indicated.
That is not 'presumption', it is written, recorded history. Your task is now to provide verifiable evidence that the recorded history of Egypt and her Pharaohs is incorrect.....but you can't can you.

Quote:
That the Genesis flood was global.
You have so far ignored this question so I will ask you yet again. Please explain just how all life on the planet was wiped out if the flood was not global. If the flood was local please tell us just what allowed the water to build up so that all life in the area of the flood was wiped out...without the water running out to sea. Please explain why Noah was instucted to build a boat to save the world's animals if most of the world wasn't going to be affected by this flood. Have you ever been to the Middle East? I have and there is no ring of high mountains around the area to hold the water in. Please explain how it happened.

Quote:
I gather from your statements thus far that you believe it's somehow outrageous and unfair for me to question any of your presumptions.
"Presumptions"???? No, recorded historical fact presented with supporting evidence..... which is something we are still waiting for from you.

Quote:
If such is the case, what would prevent me from making all sorts of assertions based of various assumptions/presumptions........
Ummmm! That's exactly what you are doing!!

Quote:
Again, keep in mind that you are the one making all the claims, presumptions and opinionated assertions - you may not like it, but the burden is on you to back up your "blather."
You keep saying this but I clearly have backed up my claims that there was no global flood and that there was no 40 year period of Egyptian desolation. I have destroyed your claim that the desolation might be 'sometime in the future' and destroyed your claim that the flood was 'local' not global. It appears that you are the only one that can't see it.

Quote:
Instead, and typically, you try to make it personal while engaging in obstinate obfuscation tactics and wordy posts designed to misdirect and muddy the water.
There is no need for me to defend this one. I think most people reading can see where the obstinate obfuscation tactics are coming from.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:43 PM
 
Location: PG County, MD
321 posts, read 1,122,867 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
There is no need for me to defend this one. I think most people reading can see where the obstinate obfuscation tactics are coming from.
Agreed. I'm still waiting for him to try to debunk even one of the points you made.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGC301 View Post
Agreed. I'm still waiting for him to try to debunk even one of the points you made.
I fear we shall be waiting a very long time my friend.
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