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Old 03-11-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 27,207,784 times
Reputation: 10607

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Again your argument breaks down to:
"Unknown means possible because I say so".

The unknown doesn't automatically fall under possible, because it just may be impossible.
How do you go from UNKNOWN to - DEFINITE. How is it possible, that you can take what I type, and flip it around so you can use the opposite meaning of what I said? If you look up the definitions of these two words, maybe you will understand that "words have meanings".


TK doesn't believe electronics manipulates electrons.
TK doesn't believe a adult he has never meet in his life was once a child.
Tk doesn't believe that his food in the supermarket was grown.
Tk doesn't believe in molecules
Tk doesn't believe that I had to type this post out 1 letter at a time.
Tk doesn't believe in viruses.
Tk doesn't believe in bacteria
Tk must then, not wash his hands after he goes to the toilet.
Tk must do many silly little things like this which will probably get him killed.
Tk doesn't know that walking in front of a car doing 100 miles an hour would probably hurt if he wasn't killed instantly.
TK doesn't know jumping off the second story building would hurt.

This list could go on for quite some time, if you require a "personal experience".

Your "belief", is base neither on reason, or evidence, but subjective experience, or desperate emotional desire for your belief to be true.
What can I say, there is very little that I actually believe in. Yet I don't disregard that it may just be possible. Unless, of course, I know that it is impossible.

By the way, notice the new tag line? Anything that is not impossible is possible by default. If you'd like to prove something impossible, then that thing is not possible, but you'd have to prove it. Otherwise, it remains possible.

 
Old 03-11-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 27,207,784 times
Reputation: 10607
Gaylenwoof

Quote:
...loads of things may be unliklely but that dont mean that its immpossible
This is precisely the point we're discussing.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 02:49 PM
 
22 posts, read 9,981 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
I've never seen TK, therefore I do not believe in his existence - except, perhaps, as a stream of annoying words on my computer monitor.

I wish ya'll would just drop this pointless drivel and focus on the OP. I've offered some clear and detailed reasons for why I am an atheist, and I would like to see some theists respond, but my posts are immediately buried under the deluge of squabbling about the possibility of impossible possibilities being impossible to know without direct personal proof...or whatever.
Thesists try to actualize meaning in living with dignity as well peace through historical or presumed real happenings in man's existance. Thats all. Its like a roadmap or should be in aquiring a key to life style and attitude. It doesn't matter what a person calls herself - himself...its the good will towards others in everyones deserving life which holds all the cards.
religion exists.... man is subject to survival, that means fear, that means ill-will..that means un-happy . Theres something out there, man can't reach entirely ...the sheer power relative to himself...would undoubtedly kill him ..... we worry too much...ch out my last post in this thread
 
Old 03-11-2011, 03:53 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 2,472,265 times
Reputation: 582
All UNKNOWNS are possible. This is utter nonsense.

Take for the example the absurd by our standards of falling off the edge of the earth. Or standing on a mountain and seeing all 4 corners of the planet; pi being a round number.
These are examples of unknowns which have now been revealed to us, to be impossible.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 27,207,784 times
Reputation: 10607
Do you know that to be a fact? If so, then you KNOW it. It is a KNOWN, not an UNKNOWN.

An "unknown" would revolve around the existence of extraterrestrial life. Unless you are saying that you know that alien life forms are impossible...

I don't know that it is impossible, thus it must be possible. Check the tag line. Anything not deemed impossible (making it a KNOWN by the way) must be possible by default.
 
Old 03-12-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,762,792 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
name one ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoro View Post
1. the ancient Egyptian pantheon of gods

2. the ancient Greek pantheon of gods

3. the ancient Roman pantheon of gods

4. the old Northern European paganism

5. the ancient druidism of the British Isles

All discards.
Well you asked for one dobeable, and got 5. Now what are you going to do with what you asked for?
 
Old 03-12-2011, 01:52 AM
 
23,193 posts, read 11,405,957 times
Reputation: 3934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
As for the more general concept of an Intelligent Designer, I am less certain. I don't say with confidence that an ID does not exist; I just say that I don't believe there is such a thing. My reasons for this are spelled out in detail in other threads (such as the "Science has better answers than God did it" thread, for example) but the basic idea is simply that all of our empirical evidence suggests that consciousness and intelligence emerge from unconscious processes that are not intelligent in themselves. Also, the human body does not seem like the perfect product of a perfect plan; it seems far more like the result of a messy, exploratory process - like organic evolution, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
For whatever it may be worth, I suggest ignoring TKramer for the purposes of this thread. These kinds of arguments are philosophical "black holes" that can suck the life out of any topic, and never shine any light on anything. Anyone really wanting to debate his brand of skepticism would be better off starting a new thread devoted specifically to the epistemological issues he raises.
I've quoted my own post from many pages back because no theists responded to it, but I think it goes to the heart of the OP. Why should we believe that the world was created by an intelligent divinity with some plan or purpose already in mind? All evidence suggests that intelligence emerges from non-intelligent systems. We never see intelligence systems that "just exist" or simply pop out of nowhere. Take human development, for example. We are not intelligent at the point of conception. Intelligence develops as we physically develop. The default position seems to be that intelligence is not something that the world starts with; it is something that the world achieves. The same can be said for meaning and purpose, which go hand-in-hand with developing intelligence. Based on evidence, atheism ought to be the default position. Theism requires us to go beyond the evidence and believe that prior to all physical manifestation of intelligent beings, there was an intelligence that did not develop out of anything, but was always already "just there." Certainly this is possible, but why should we believe it?

The best question is not "Why are some people atheists?" - atheism is just the default rational position based on what we actually see happen in our world. The better question is: "Why do some people see a need to imagine that, in addition to the sorts of intelligence we see arising every day via physical development, there is some mysterious prior intelligence that somehow makes physical intelligence develop?" Why do we need to posit this extra entity?

The absence of a God would not make our lives completely meaningless or without purpose. Instead, we would be forced to find meaning, and our own purpose, in the experiences of our actual embodied lives. This would not be a tragedy; it would be an important from of emotional growth. Religion is like an addiction - hard to let go of, but worth the effort.
The evidence suggests no such things, Gaylen. In fact it suggests just the opposite. There is no disorder or chaos in our reality. That implies a Source for the consistencies, constants, directed processes, evolution, etc. that enable science to exist and inform our intelligence about God. Our ignorance and inability to fathom the directions underlying our reality does not require that it be considered undirected by default. Our ignorance is no excuse for denying God . . . neither are ANY specific "beliefs about" God.

You are still conflating the "beliefs about" God with the existential issue. The issue of existence is independent of ANY of the "beliefs about" God. There is no point in getting hung up on all the Omni's or perfection, or whatever human-derived qualifications that so many of us insist God MUST have . They are "beliefs about" and have no business in questions of existence. The qualities our science tells us God does have are more than sufficiently Godly relative to us puny creatures to qualify as God to us and our meager existences.

To analogize the existential point I am trying to highlight . . . consider that for all practical purposes . . . we really are God to every living cell within our body and brain. Should any cell in our brain be consciously aware of itself and its impermanent existence . . . it would experience the same issues we do with respect to God. As God of our cells . . . we are responsible for everything that comprises their existence . . . as God is for us. Yet . . . we are not Omni-anything, or perfect anything or . . . whatever. But existentially we are no less God to the cells of our body (should they be aware). If they "pray" to us (send pain signals) we try to respond within our abilities . . . but otherwise we generally ignore our cells life and death existences . . . taking for granted that they will perform as they should.

You have correctly identified TKramer as a troll . . . that is how his post count gets so high. The best approach is to ignore him (don't feed the troll).
 
Old 03-12-2011, 03:53 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 2,472,265 times
Reputation: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Do you know that to be a fact? If so, then you KNOW it. It is a KNOWN, not an UNKNOWN.

An "unknown" would revolve around the existence of extraterrestrial life. Unless you are saying that you know that alien life forms are impossible...

I don't know that it is impossible, thus it must be possible. Check the tag line. Anything not deemed impossible (making it a KNOWN by the way) must be possible by default.
English must be your 5th language....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
These are examples of unknowns which have now been revealed to us, to be impossible.
Hence disproving your premise.
Funny how you are the only one claiming to know that unknowns are all possible, and then try to falsely claim that I am doing exactly what you are doing...
 
Old 03-12-2011, 07:06 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,212,666 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Well you asked for one dobeable, and got 5. Now what are you going to do with what you asked for?
i asked to name one of the hindu religions
 
Old 03-12-2011, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 27,207,784 times
Reputation: 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
English must be your 5th language....


Hence disproving your premise.
Funny how you are the only one claiming to know that unknowns are all possible, and then try to falsely claim that I am doing exactly what you are doing...
Until it is known to be impossible, it is possible. Words work a certain way.
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