Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
your right not one of the words you used fall under the category of terrorism... you just never said the word "terrorist"... but you use pictures of terrorist, books written by a terrorist group... but your right.. you never actually said the word "terrorist"... you just make all the claims muslims are terrorist... sure... and 75% of converts to Islam leave within the first 3 years? it wouldn't be growing much then huh?... but its the 2nd largest religion in the world, i guess "You conveniently skip the stats that clearly state" that...
I am not the one that espouse not all muslims are terrorist but all terrorists are muslim. So you need not flatter youself with some pious victory.
Yes 75% leave, your imam sites never tell you this, just ignore it. The 75% leaving are new converts. The growth is still due to higher birth rates and migration of already muslim people.
Quote:
your right, most Christians do not read the bible and I'm sure there are some people out there that are illiterate that are Muslim but what a big surprise, you don't have to know how to read to believe everything. I mean take a look in the mirror, you have not read the Quran and you may not be illiterate but you claim to know everything about it when you haven't even read it... hmmm...
I have made no such claims, I was honest to tell you I have not read it, I have read some of it but this is anyway a moot point. The OP is that you cannot change it as it is in ancient arabic and everyone reads the qu'ran/memorizes it. That is nothing more than parroting when most muslims are illiterate. Translations are in error whenever you point out absurdities, well you must read it in Arabic. I never studied Hebrew or Koine Greek but there are things like concordances that offer multiple inytrpretations, we do not have that with the qu'ran.
Furthermore, the illiterate are in the ME, African and Asian countries.
Quote:
you've posted some pictures and made the same accusations that are always made... the same ones that have been explained hundreds of times... and every question you've had i gave a legitimate answer to. however your not really asking about Islam, your asking about the people overseas who terrorize people...
I dunno how you can ignore the evidence. You really have to have your head in the sand. You simply say these are bad muslims. Well then these bad muslims must then be struck off the record as muslims if that is what you are saying. Thus your claims refute themselves.
Quote:
Everyone can read the Qur'an in whatever language they speak. it's called a translation...
You really like going around in circles don't you. I cannot read the qu'ran in its purest form unless I learn ancient Arabic according to your claims.n If there is a contradiction, I will be referred back to the original. The xians do exactly the same thing when they infer the original texts are w/o error.
Quote:
well you've yet to do so and you just basically said that you have never read the Qur'an meaning you know nothing about the religion because you need to read the book to know anything about the religion yet you claim to know everything about the religion... or all you need to know when in fact you know nothing. that's like saying you know all about being a doctor without even picking up a medical book. you know what happens when you don't read the medical books and you listen to other people who have not read the books, you get the wrong information... its all starting to make sense now...
You analogy of the doctor has already been debunked. I have basic biology grounding and know where sperm comes from unlike what mohamed thought where it came from.
Quote:
how do you even know what these "ex-muslims" are saying is true? a person i know that actually lives in Cali goes on local talk shows saying all the "bad things" about Islam and she says she was a Muslim but for how long was she a Muslim?... 2 months... and she's on TV saying she knows all about the religion.. well that was fast. but hey whatever agrees with you is proof right?...
They refute the garbage with scientific facts. These are muslims that were culturally muslim too, you know from the ME or Asia.
Quote:
because when you claim Islam is bad, you have to show proof of the religion being bad, not people being bad... if a Christian does something bad do i think the Christian religion is bad? no i think thats just a bad person because it wouldn't be right to base an entire religion on a single person or group of people... example, a church was given the right to protest against gays at soldiers funerals... i think THOSE people are evil for that, but im not running around saying all churches do this... thats unfair... and coming from a "fair" atheist i would think you would agree but all you've been doing this whole time is proving how unfair you truly are...
The WBC is one example of sick minds, however there is 1000 times more of this in islam than the xian faith. Furthermore, the WBC are not seen perpetuating any violence in the name of their religion.
Quote:
A scholar? or someone that calls himself a scholar? im pretty sure if this ex-atheist went up against a TRUE islamic scholar he would be shut down pretty quick. because it's hard to prove something wrong when all you have are claims and no proof.... he reads arabic and has read the bible and the torah... that makes him a scholar? im sure theres many people that have done so and i don't consider them scholars... but hey if that's your definition of a scholar, more power to you....
You are definitely not a scholar, you admit you cannot read Arabic and yet you claim the Arabic is true, how do you get that other by taking someone else's word for it?
You only need to google image search for islamic atrocities and christian atrocities and see that the xian ones are historic and islam's are current.
If you were to claim that islam in the USA is practiced peacefully, then I would agree, you probably have nutjobs there too. Just like in SA most muslims are only culturally so and mostly secular, may attend Friday prayers but not much more than that.
You fail to understand that we see the extremists and what they are capable of and where islam is the state law. This alone proves that it is NOT the religion of peace
I am not the one that espouse not all muslims are terrorist but all terrorists are muslim. So you need not flatter youself with some pious victory.
all terrorist are muslim?... yes because there have never been any other terrorist in history and according to you there is no non-muslim terrorist group... seriously?... that has to be your most ignorant statement yet...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Yes 75% leave, your imam sites never tell you this, just ignore it. The 75% leaving are new converts. The growth is still due to higher birth rates and migration of already muslim people.
well, i do not know which site your referring to but its impossible for it to be the fastest growing religion in the world AND have 75% leave the religion within the first three years. you can't believe everything you read on the internet... sometimes you have to use common sense...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
I have made no such claims, I was honest to tell you I have not read it, I have read some of it but this is anyway a moot point. The OP is that you cannot change it as it is in ancient arabic and everyone reads the qu'ran/memorizes it. That is nothing more than parroting when most muslims are illiterate. Translations are in error whenever you point out absurdities, well you must read it in Arabic. I never studied Hebrew or Koine Greek but there are things like concordances that offer multiple inytrpretations, we do not have that with the qu'ran.
well thats it. you haven't read the book that proves the religion but you know everything about it... without reading it... your just literally parroting what other people say... but you can't prove it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Furthermore, the illiterate are in the ME, African and Asian countries.
I dunno how you can ignore the evidence. You really have to have your head in the sand. You simply say these are bad muslims. Well then these bad muslims must then be struck off the record as muslims if that is what you are saying. Thus your claims refute themselves.
bad muslims, bad people, whatever you want to refer to them as but the fact that they call themselves muslim does not mean that they are practicing Islam correctly. this is what your not understanding, your the one with your head in the sand... i see what goes on and it makes me just as upset as anyone but i know those people whatever you want to refer to them as, are not practicing Islam because that's not part of the religion..
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You really like going around in circles don't you. I cannot read the qu'ran in its purest form unless I learn ancient Arabic according to your claims.n If there is a contradiction, I will be referred back to the original. The xians do exactly the same thing when they infer the original texts are w/o error.
true, xians tell you to refer to the original... what original... kjv? esv? rsv?... this is not the same as Islam. in Islam there IS an original that you can refer to IF NEEDED. some people do not need to learn arabic to be convinced that Islam is the religion of God. some people don't even need to read the entire Quran... but some people do need to go to the original source, and what do you know... we have it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You analogy of the doctor has already been debunked. I have basic biology grounding and know where sperm comes from unlike what mohamed thought where it came from.
if you have not read the quran or sunnah, how do you even know what he said?... listening to other people again... that's really gullible of you if you believe anything people say thats "bad" or "incorrect" about Islam. unlike you i went to the source and didnt listen to what people say. you leave xianaity because you found faults in it. but how did you disprove it? by looking at what xians do? by what "bad" xians do? no you went to the bible to disprove the religion. but you don't do the same with Islam?... that's why you need the book to disprove the religion... not by what some people do....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
They refute the garbage with scientific facts. These are muslims that were culturally muslim too, you know from the ME or Asia.
The WBC is one example of sick minds, however there is 1000 times more of this in islam than the xian faith. Furthermore, the WBC are not seen perpetuating any violence in the name of their religion.
your right because if someone says I'm going to hurt these innocent people in the name of Islam that makes it part of the religion... because of what someone said... someone that obviously doesn't even know about their own religion if they hurt an innocent person... your more gullible than i thought... none of that is true to the faith. that's just like someone saying "I'm going to hurt these people in the name of Christ!"... not part of the religion... just a crazy person that doesn't even know about their own religion because that statement is an oxymoron...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You are definitely not a scholar, you admit you cannot read Arabic and yet you claim the Arabic is true, how do you get that other by taking someone else's word for it?
the translation in English is good enough for me but if i have questions i can usually refer to multiple Islamic sites and friends of mine who know arabic fluently. i go to the source if i don't understand... and i never said i was a scholar, it takes a lot more than "speaking arabic and knowing the bible and the torah" to be a scholar...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You only need to google image search for islamic atrocities and christian atrocities and see that the xian ones are historic and islam's are current.
you should really look up the word islam and what it means because everytime you enter "islam" its like writing "peace"... peace atrocities, peace terrorist, thats taking the definition out of context... but to answer your statement, there are some bad people out there that claim to be a part of Islam but that doesn't make it part of the religion. you can't combine the two...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
If you were to claim that islam in the USA is practiced peacefully, then I would agree, you probably have nutjobs there too. Just like in SA most muslims are only culturally so and mostly secular, may attend Friday prayers but not much more than that.
well I'm honestly glad we finally agree on something, and yes i agree too, there may be some nutjobs but I'm sure theres plenty of nutjobs who are not muslim too... but ya the muslims i know practice the religion the way it is meant to be practiced. properly and peacefully. the way Muhammad showed is to practice it. but those people that are killing and raping and murdering, trust me, i hate them just as much as you and when i hear or see on the news some idiot saying "kill infadels in the name of Islam" i can't believe it. it's upsetting because it puts the wrong image out there. but hey there's idiots everywhere... we can only do what we can and try and fix the image they put put out there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You fail to understand that we see the extremists and what they are capable of and where islam is the state law. This alone proves that it is NOT the religion of peace
this doesn't prove anything because you fail to understand that even IF there was a place that was under true islamic law you would find people breaking that law. no matter what or who established the law. and i won't deny theres extremist because there's extremist in every religion and even non-religious extremist. but if America has laws and people break them does that mean that America is not trying to establish a peaceful society? does that make the Laws of America non-peaceful? (if thats even the right wording) no it just means that they have a law established and no matter what the law says, people will break the law. they always have and always will, its inevitable.
all terrorist are muslim?... yes because there have never been any other terrorist in history and according to you there is no non-muslim terrorist group... seriously?... that has to be your most ignorant statement yet...
Maybe you should read that sentence again and apologize
Quote:
well, i do not know which site your referring to but its impossible for it to be the fastest growing religion in the world AND have 75% leave the religion within the first three years. you can't believe everything you read on the internet... sometimes you have to use common sense...
According to islamic sources, is where the 75% came from.
Quote:
well thats it. you haven't read the book that proves the religion but you know everything about it... without reading it... your just literally parroting what other people say... but you can't prove it...
There is nothing to prove, if I want to know something, I will go to an ex-muslim that is well versed in English and the Qu'ran, They give the texts too and the reasons they left the faith are 99% the same as ex christians. Same koolaide, just a different flavour,
Quote:
bad muslims, bad people, whatever you want to refer to them as but the fact that they call themselves muslim does not mean that they are practicing Islam correctly. this is what your not understanding, your the one with your head in the sand... i see what goes on and it makes me just as upset as anyone but i know those people whatever you want to refer to them as, are not practicing Islam because that's not part of the religion..
This is the no true scotsman fallacy, if they are not muslim or not practicing islam, you have to adjust the stats your claim, they must be excluded from the apparent awesome figures. The example of population growth in Iran since 1950 proves that the growth is due to higher birth rates, the claim I originally made. If you want to distance yourself from what appears to be the norm in the ME, then you have to exclude that populace from your numbers. Saudi are probably the worst but the folk live according to that islamic brand, they are the worst when it comes to the barbarism perpetuated in the name of islam.
Your approach is like having a brother in jail for murder, but you don't want to talk about him, he is still your brother.
Quote:
true, xians tell you to refer to the original... what original... kjv? esv? rsv?... this is not the same as Islam. in Islam there IS an original that you can refer to IF NEEDED. some people do not need to learn arabic to be convinced that Islam is the religion of God. some people don't even need to read the entire Quran... but some people do need to go to the original source, and what do you know... we have it!
The original is the scrolls the original writer wrote on. They do not exist except there are some scrolls and fragments that exist of other writings from the same era.
The same is for the qu'ran which btw was compiled more than once 10 years after mo died. Mo was illiterate and allegedly dictatedand for someone that heard from allah direct was corrected by his buddies.
Quote:
if you have not read the quran or sunnah, how do you even know what he said?... listening to other people again... that's really gullible of you if you believe anything people say thats "bad" or "incorrect" about Islam. unlike you i went to the source and didnt listen to what people say. you leave xianaity because you found faults in it. but how did you disprove it? by looking at what xians do? by what "bad" xians do? no you went to the bible to disprove the religion. but you don't do the same with Islam?... that's why you need the book to disprove the religion... not by what some people do....
Why should I waste my time is investigating another folklore, god does not exist in any form. Reading or studying the qu'ran will simply provide me the ammunition I need to refute folk like you. The bits I have seen are anyway heavily plagiarized from the Judaic texts. I have no inclination to study buddhism either.
Quote:
your right because if someone says I'm going to hurt these innocent people in the name of Islam that makes it part of the religion... because of what someone said... someone that obviously doesn't even know about their own religion if they hurt an innocent person... your more gullible than i thought... none of that is true to the faith. that's just like someone saying "I'm going to hurt these people in the name of Christ!"... not part of the religion... just a crazy person that doesn't even know about their own religion because that statement is an oxymoron...
Well there seem to be a lot of crazy people in Saudi and Africa where these mutilations and executions take place, far from a civilized society. You cannot claim high numbers w/o owning these bad muslims, I just do not know how to put this in a language you can understand. Your claim invalidates itself when you deny these are not muslim.
Quote:
the translation in English is good enough for me but if i have questions i can usually refer to multiple Islamic sites and friends of mine who know arabic fluently. i go to the source if i don't understand... and i never said i was a scholar, it takes a lot more than "speaking arabic and knowing the bible and the torah" to be a scholar...
Yes but you need to look at both sides of the argument, simply going to apologist sites gives only the pretty dressed up side.
Atheists in Pakistan are fearful for their lives so the most just shut up. They have to use IP proxy hosts to hide the content they view from there.
Quote:
you should really look up the word islam and what it means because everytime you enter "islam" its like writing "peace"... peace atrocities, peace terrorist, thats taking the definition out of context... but to answer your statement, there are some bad people out there that claim to be a part of Islam but that doesn't make it part of the religion. you can't combine the two...
Exactly, you should therefor adjust your claims to exclude these folk.
Quote:
well I'm honestly glad we finally agree on something, and yes i agree too, there may be some nutjobs but I'm sure theres plenty of nutjobs who are not muslim too... but ya the muslims i know practice the religion the way it is meant to be practiced. properly and peacefully. the way Muhammad showed is to practice it. but those people that are killing and raping and murdering, trust me, i hate them just as much as you and when i hear or see on the news some idiot saying "kill infadels in the name of Islam" i can't believe it. it's upsetting because it puts the wrong image out there. but hey there's idiots everywhere... we can only do what we can and try and fix the image they put put out there...
I think if you actually study, you will see it is in the qu'ran that body mutilation is recommended by mo himself, or was that his buddy?
Quote:
this doesn't prove anything because you fail to understand that even IF there was a place that was under true islamic law you would find people breaking that law. no matter what or who established the law. and i won't deny theres extremist because there's extremist in every religion and even non-religious extremist. but if America has laws and people break them does that mean that America is not trying to establish a peaceful society? does that make the Laws of America non-peaceful? (if thats even the right wording) no it just means that they have a law established and no matter what the law says, people will break the law. they always have and always will, its inevitable.
True islamic law is what we see, it is the extreme and the way they deal with what I have already mentioned is barbaric. Were muslims able to influence government in the USA, it would be no different. Your religion remains moderate as it is governed by secular laws.
Why not read this, only 26 pages long, link. This is but one report on the inconsistencies of the qu'ran and hadiths.
Maybe you should read that sentence again and apologize
i did. your saying there are not any "non-muslim" terrorist. thats not true. there are quite a few terrorist groups out there who are not "muslim".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
According to islamic sources, is where the 75% came from.
There is nothing to prove, if I want to know something, I will go to an ex-muslim that is well versed in English and the Qu'ran, They give the texts too and the reasons they left the faith are 99% the same as ex christians. Same koolaide, just a different flavour,
you should look at both sides. listen to an atheist who converted to islam if you want to be fair and take your own advice by listening to both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
This is the no true scotsman fallacy, if they are not muslim or not practicing islam, you have to adjust the stats your claim, they must be excluded from the apparent awesome figures. The example of population growth in Iran since 1950 proves that the growth is due to higher birth rates, the claim I originally made. If you want to distance yourself from what appears to be the norm in the ME, then you have to exclude that populace from your numbers. Saudi are probably the worst but the folk live according to that islamic brand, they are the worst when it comes to the barbarism perpetuated in the name of islam.
well it wouldn't even matter if you excluded the people who call themselves muslim that terrorize. it'd still be the fastest growing religion in the world and the 2nd largest. whether its due to higher birth rates or people just converting that doesn't change the fact its the fastest growing religion. period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Your approach is like having a brother in jail for murder, but you don't want to talk about him, he is still your brother.
as far as your example goes, i don't mind talking about him but i don't say that he represents my entire family is the point. just because he is bad does not mean my family nor i are bad as well. it does not mean that the way we live is bad. your saying well because 1 person in your family is bad then the whole family follows the same path... and he does not represent my family. that's what your not understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
The original is the scrolls the original writer wrote on. They do not exist except there are some scrolls and fragments that exist of other writings from the same era.
The same is for the qu'ran which btw was compiled more than once 10 years after mo died. Mo was illiterate and allegedly dictatedand for someone that heard from allah direct was corrected by his buddies.
sure the quran was compiled shortly after te prophets death but that doesnt matter because there were already thousands of people that memorized the quran chapter by chapter and the authentication was approved the prophet before he died. all of the chapters were just complied into a single book after his death but so what. thousands had the quran memorized by heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Why should I waste my time is investigating another folklore, god does not exist in any form. Reading or studying the qu'ran will simply provide me the ammunition I need to refute folk like you. The bits I have seen are anyway heavily plagiarized from the Judaic texts. I have no inclination to study buddhism either.
its not another folklore but u should research islam for the same reason your "wasting your time" looking up stuff against islam. to learn. and not repeat the wrong information making it known that you don't know what your talking about. you can spend hours looking up stuff against islam but wont spend more than a few minutes to listen to what the other side has to say? how is that being fair?... your really proving more and more how unfair you truly are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Well there seem to be a lot of crazy people in Saudi and Africa where these mutilations and executions take place, far from a civilized society. You cannot claim high numbers w/o owning these bad muslims, I just do not know how to put this in a language you can understand. Your claim invalidates itself when you deny these are not muslim.
im not saying they are not muslim, but what i am saying is that some of the things they do are not part of the Islamic religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Yes but you need to look at both sides of the argument, simply going to apologist sites gives only the pretty dressed up side.
i have looked at both sides before i became muslim. i looked into evolution, christianity, islam in great detail and a few others but the others didnt make sense very quickly to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Atheists in Pakistan are fearful for their lives so the most just shut up. They have to use IP proxy hosts to hide the content they view from there.
well if you knew about the religion you would know that its not part of the Islamic faith to judge anyone for what they believe and other people are allowed to practice what they believe no matter what it is as long as they do not try and force their religion on us. its not part of Islam to force anyone into Islam either. people ask and we give answers but forcing anything upon anybody is not right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Exactly, you should therefor adjust your claims to exclude these folk.
i already have. i say that they do not represent Islam. and they are not practicing Islam when they do things that go against it. its not part of the Islamic faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
I think if you actually study, you will see it is in the qu'ran that body mutilation is recommended by mo himself, or was that his buddy?
not sure what your talking about but if you knew what people did to the prophet and people that just wanted to worship god, these people were tortured to death. and trust me what they did was what one would consider "barbaric". people used to throw stones at the prophet, choke him, throw camel guts on him and what did he do? nothing. he just kept praying he didn't fight them back. people used to do things to innocent muslims that were just practicing their religion not bothering anybody. the sad part is that you don't research these things and you just listen to other people...
[quote=SeekerSA;18398447]True islamic law is what we see, it is the extreme and the way they deal with what I have already mentioned is barbaric. Were muslims able to influence government in the USA, it would be no different. Your religion remains moderate as it is governed by secular laws.[quote=SeekerSA;18398447]
you don't see true islamic law anywhere. even in saudi they do not give women their islamic rights. women are not even allowed to drive in some of the countires "under islamic law". women are beat if they walk out at night in some countries "under islamic law" but thats not part of the islamic law. its not right period. this is why there is not one place under true islamic law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Why not read this, only 26 pages long, link. This is but one report on the inconsistencies of the qu'ran and hadiths.
you can read 26 pages on how someone left a religion but you won't read 26 pages of the quran? how is that being fair? i ask you to read and you refuse but you won't be fair and read 26 pages of the quran? i thought you were a fair atheist? thats not fair at all that you ask me to read something when ive asked you several times to read the quran. you dont even have to read the whole thing. anyways he uses weak hadith and he admits that. weak hadiths are stories that do not have enough information to b considered authentic. its like a good guess but can't be proven. but no part of the religion is based on weak hadith. also his argument about 51:56 in the prayer section is him saying does he just expect us to worship him and not help others... cmon seriously.. of course god wants you to help other people, the prophet himself even being a prophet spent time with the young and old, weak and strong, etc, etc. this guy has just got it all mixed up. i only skimmed through and i really don't have enough time to refute all that he is saying but knowing that he's got the wrong idea already tells me that he left the religion for his own desires. he chooses not to worship god because he believes it takes too much of his time... seriously? i pray 5 times a day and a prayer does not take more than 5 minutes most of the time because i have not memorized any longer chapters of the quran but seriously, 30 minutes a day? and this guy is acting like its consuming his whole life... saying he doesnt have time to help others or to say that god does not want us to help others? obviously this guy is confused... not to mention his contradictions section is wrong. every single "contradiction" is not a contradiction at all.
SeekerSA, i honestly think that we have the same thought process when it comes to what those people are doing overseas that claim to be muslim. because honestly if it were up to me i wouldn't consider them to be muslim for the things they do but its not up to me. i don't agree with what they do and how they treat others in society however i think we have the same idea, just a different way of wording it. it's obvious you know that not all muslims are bad people and that not all muslims do those things. its not part of the religion we practice and the religion they are supposed to be practicing. but if i could catch one of those guys that raped that woman, or killed those girls, believe that i would turn them in, in a heartbeat. what they're doing is not right and i honestly don't know how or why they get away with it because if Islamic law were truly established there these actions would not be tolerated. unfortunately, Islamic law is not enforced anywhere in the world. places claim to be under Islamic law however they don't follow it verbatim or word-for-word. they mix culture or corruption in it. but just thought i'd let you know i agree with you 100% that if we could take them off the population count of muslims, i'd do it but i don't control any of that and i am not the final say of who is muslim and who is not. technically anyone who takes shihada and follows the five pillars of islam is TECHNICALLY a muslim, however terrorist, people that kill/rape innocent people are not right and i don't consider them to be muslim because i'm sure the prophet, pbuh, himself would have these people punished for their actions. it would not b tolerated. under islamic law, true islamic law, this would not be tolerated.
SeekerSA, i honestly think that we have the same thought process when it comes to what those people are doing overseas that claim to be muslim. because honestly if it were up to me i wouldn't consider them to be muslim for the things they do but its not up to me. i don't agree with what they do and how they treat others in society however i think we have the same idea, just a different way of wording it. it's obvious you know that not all muslims are bad people and that not all muslims do those things. its not part of the religion we practice and the religion they are supposed to be practicing. but if i could catch one of those guys that raped that woman, or killed those girls, believe that i would turn them in, in a heartbeat.
I am sure morally you would but living in one of those countries you would like all the rest be in fear for your life. The fact that in places like Pakistan, where the religion actually was the prime reason for the division of British India into 4 separate countries, Pakistan being one of them. We see now what islam has done to that culture, arguably, what is happening there is because they likely still have a cast system and have possibly perverted the religion howevre, the qu'ran does give them justification to beat 14 yo girl to death because she had an affair with her uncle, I mean get real, nowhere else in the world would a man get away with that, he would go to jail and possibly get the death sentence in less lenient countries. Islam want to be the dominant religion and they end up becoming a Saudi, a Pakistan and in all likelihood the same reason xains have hang ups with other religions, many mixed POV from imams whose interpretation is seen as gospel.
Quote:
what they're doing is not right and i honestly don't know how or why they get away with it because if Islamic law were truly established there these actions would not be tolerated. unfortunately, Islamic law is not enforced anywhere in the world. places claim to be under Islamic law however they don't follow it verbatim or word-for-word. they mix culture or corruption in it. but just thought i'd let you know i agree with you 100% that if we could take them off the population count of muslims, i'd do it but i don't control any of that and i am not the final say of who is muslim and who is not. technically anyone who takes shihada and follows the five pillars of islam is TECHNICALLY a muslim, however terrorist, people that kill/rape innocent people are not right and i don't consider them to be muslim because i'm sure the prophet, pbuh, himself would have these people punished for their actions. it would not b tolerated. under islamic law, true islamic law, this would not be tolerated.
I understand where you are coming from however, moderates like you are the minority, you may disagree but if there are moderates in these other countries, they simply tow the line or they do not know any better. The uneducated definitely will not know any better.
By INQUISADOR
Added: Tuesday, 09 November 2010 at 5:10 PM
It was reported today that a young Christian woman in Pakistan has been sentenced to death for the crime of blasphemy. She has also been fined £700 which is two and a half years wages in her job as a field labourer. The crime was in engaging in a discussion with Muslim neighbours who wished to convert her to Islam, they took offence at a mild remark of hers and apparently set the men onto her and her children. She was beaten and imprisoned. There is currently another similar case ongoing in Lahore.
The blasphemy laws of President Zia Ul-Haq in Pakistan have been exploited to persecute non-Muslims for many years now. They are commonly used to blackmail or dispossess victims who may be condemned on nothing more than a false rumour of tearing a koran page.
This commonwealth country, receiving aid in billions from the west while plotting actions against neighbouring India such as the Mumbai massacre two years ago, is guilty of human rights violations that need to be stopped.
This is from a forum so I cannot provide the link.
This is Pakistan and this is what will happen anywhere islam becomes the dominant religion w/o secular laws.
The numbers in growth are simply higher birth rates, that is no claim to the religion is right as the growth happens to be in these countries you and I despise. In these areas marriages are mostly arranged. In SA most muslim families I see, there are 2-3 children but mostly 2. They have adapted to the culture into which they grew up in. Only the older generation have larger families but that is what it was with the white folk back then too. The black folk also have less children these days.
In Zimbabwe, I played cricket with muslims and hindus for a jewish club to boot, the only jew in the team was the wicket keeper. We even hung out playing pool together and getting drunk, folk really were more culturally identified than religious, we NEVER talked religion.
See I am not racist and have had many non white friends growing up in the colonies.
From your previous post
I have no desire to study the qu'ran, that will only equip me a bit better to counter your arguments and that is not my mission in life. I have time on my hands right now between jobs.
If the islam you practice in the US and what is practiced here in SA were the norm, no one would really have an issue other than debates on forums like these, sadly that is not the case. So whenever a muslim comes to a forum claiming the "religion of peace" mantra, we have to ask "what about this then?" Change will have to come from within these countries, their governments toppled w/o the help of the US and maybe then, folk will be able to leave the religion w/o fear of reprisal. Extremists would need to be taken to task for their crimes against humanity.
Until then, we atheists will stand up as a voice of reason in the midst of this madness to give those wanting out hope.
I am sure morally you would but living in one of those countries you would like all the rest be in fear for your life. The fact that in places like Pakistan, where the religion actually was the prime reason for the division of British India into 4 separate countries, Pakistan being one of them. We see now what islam has done to that culture, arguably, what is happening there is because they likely still have a cast system and have possibly perverted the religion howevre, the qu'ran does give them justification to beat 14 yo girl to death because she had an affair with her uncle, I mean get real, nowhere else in the world would a man get away with that, he would go to jail and possibly get the death sentence in less lenient countries. Islam want to be the dominant religion and they end up becoming a Saudi, a Pakistan and in all likelihood the same reason xains have hang ups with other religions, many mixed POV from imams whose interpretation is seen as gospel.
I understand where you are coming from however, moderates like you are the minority, you may disagree but if there are moderates in these other countries, they simply tow the line or they do not know any better. The uneducated definitely will not know any better.
By INQUISADOR
Added: Tuesday, 09 November 2010 at 5:10 PM
It was reported today that a young Christian woman in Pakistan has been sentenced to death for the crime of blasphemy. She has also been fined £700 which is two and a half years wages in her job as a field labourer. The crime was in engaging in a discussion with Muslim neighbours who wished to convert her to Islam, they took offence at a mild remark of hers and apparently set the men onto her and her children. She was beaten and imprisoned. There is currently another similar case ongoing in Lahore.
The blasphemy laws of President Zia Ul-Haq in Pakistan have been exploited to persecute non-Muslims for many years now. They are commonly used to blackmail or dispossess victims who may be condemned on nothing more than a false rumour of tearing a koran page.
This commonwealth country, receiving aid in billions from the west while plotting actions against neighbouring India such as the Mumbai massacre two years ago, is guilty of human rights violations that need to be stopped.
This is from a forum so I cannot provide the link.
This is Pakistan and this is what will happen anywhere islam becomes the dominant religion w/o secular laws.
The numbers in growth are simply higher birth rates, that is no claim to the religion is right as the growth happens to be in these countries you and I despise. In these areas marriages are mostly arranged. In SA most muslim families I see, there are 2-3 children but mostly 2. They have adapted to the culture into which they grew up in. Only the older generation have larger families but that is what it was with the white folk back then too. The black folk also have less children these days.
In Zimbabwe, I played cricket with muslims and hindus for a jewish club to boot, the only jew in the team was the wicket keeper. We even hung out playing pool together and getting drunk, folk really were more culturally identified than religious, we NEVER talked religion.
See I am not racist and have had many non white friends growing up in the colonies.
From your previous post
I have no desire to study the qu'ran, that will only equip me a bit better to counter your arguments and that is not my mission in life. I have time on my hands right now between jobs.
If the islam you practice in the US and what is practiced here in SA were the norm, no one would really have an issue other than debates on forums like these, sadly that is not the case. So whenever a muslim comes to a forum claiming the "religion of peace" mantra, we have to ask "what about this then?" Change will have to come from within these countries, their governments toppled w/o the help of the US and maybe then, folk will be able to leave the religion w/o fear of reprisal. Extremists would need to be taken to task for their crimes against humanity.
Until then, we atheists will stand up as a voice of reason in the midst of this madness to give those wanting out hope.
i know what your saying and i can see why you think like that. i respectfully disagree with your claim as you thought i would just because those people on tv are not practicing the religion by doing what they do. i wouldnt even consider them muslim because the things they do are so upsetting but i know that there are many muslims here in the states that try to clear up the mess and explain to people that islam IS a religion of peace. the religion itself. people in pakistan or iran that perform suicide bombings or force islam on others, etc. etc. thats not part of islam. thats not what it teaches. the religion itself is peaceful. but trust me, bad stuff happens all over the world. and its not just these people in the ME that are bad. theres thousands of people in the US that rape, murder, steal, etc. and none of that is the fault of the ME or any religion. but as much as we both want bad things to stop its inevitable. it sucks, but thats reality and that has nothing to do with the religion of islam.
and you say that if you read the quran it will only "better equip you", but be open minded about it. if you read a book already having the intention of hating whatever it says then i would think it wouldnt shock you that you hate it when you get done with it.
there are more "moderates" than you think. theres millions if not billions of muslims in the US and you never hear about them... why? because they're moderate people trying to practice their beliefs and live their lives, taking care of their families, working to make rent and take care of business. but if you keep looking at all the bad things you see overseas, all your going to see is the bad things overseas. but if you were fair, like you say you are, you would look into the religion itself, and not what other people say. that letter btw talks about her being beat... thats not what muslims do, this is why i do not consider those people who do these things to be muslims. they're just cruel and it sucks that i can't slap the crap out of some of these people who call themselves muslim because they are supposed to be representing the religion of islam, the religion of peace, but they do this crap. it upsets me just as much as you but i remain a muslim because it is a religion of peace if practiced the way it was meant to be practiced. but some people are just bad people. no matter if theyre religious or not. im sure if you labeled all the murders, rapist, etc. in the prisons there would be atheist, christian, agnostic, etc. but that doesnt mean thats what all atheist practice, or all christians practice, its just bad people that claim to be part of something...
i know what your saying and i can see why you think like that. i respectfully disagree with your claim as you thought i would just because those people on tv are not practicing the religion by doing what they do. i wouldnt even consider them muslim because the things they do are so upsetting but i know that there are many muslims here in the states that try to clear up the mess and explain to people that islam IS a religion of peace. the religion itself. people in pakistan or iran that perform suicide bombings or force islam on others, etc. etc. thats not part of islam. thats not what it teaches. the religion itself is peaceful. but trust me, bad stuff happens all over the world. and its not just these people in the ME that are bad. theres thousands of people in the US that rape, murder, steal, etc. and none of that is the fault of the ME or any religion. but as much as we both want bad things to stop its inevitable. it sucks, but thats reality and that has nothing to do with the religion of islam.
I hear you but maybe an approach w/o the appeal to awesomeness will help your cause, you have to explain why these folk do what they do as that is the perception we get. You have too much bad press.
The bad folk in the US are not doing these crimes in the name of their religion, that is the big difference. The atrocities which you equate to terror is wrong, this is simple abuse of human rights and dignity, very little to do with crime.
Quote:
and you say that if you read the quran it will only "better equip you", but be open minded about it. if you read a book already having the intention of hating whatever it says then i would think it wouldnt shock you that you hate it when you get done with it.
No I would have an open mind but bear in mind, I have studied christianity extensively in my deconversion precess and simply see too many parallels already w/o having to educate myself in the details.
Quote:
but some people are just bad people. no matter if theyre religious or not. im sure if you labeled all the murders, rapist, etc. in the prisons there would be atheist, christian, agnostic, etc. but that doesnt mean thats what all atheist practice, or all christians practice, its just bad people that claim to be part of something...
In US prison population stats, the xians are the biggest group and atheists the smallest, this is simply a representation of the bigger demographic of the USA. I am sure in SA it would be similar, it pleads the case for no one.
Like I said earlier, this whole rant of islam being the fastest, the bestest, the biggest, it has to then take in the realities I have countered with or stop making those stupid claims. I counter xians in the same way when they appeal to awesomeness to defend their POV. Your's and their defence are the same, they are not real (insert faith(tm) here) and this the appeal loses it traction. You both have to own the stupidz if you want to make that claim to fame.
I hear you but maybe an approach w/o the appeal to awesomeness will help your cause, you have to explain why these folk do what they do as that is the perception we get. You have too much bad press.
The bad folk in the US are not doing these crimes in the name of their religion, that is the big difference. The atrocities which you equate to terror is wrong, this is simple abuse of human rights and dignity, very little to do with crime.
No I would have an open mind but bear in mind, I have studied christianity extensively in my deconversion precess and simply see too many parallels already w/o having to educate myself in the details.
In US prison population stats, the xians are the biggest group and atheists the smallest, this is simply a representation of the bigger demographic of the USA. I am sure in SA it would be similar, it pleads the case for no one.
Like I said earlier, this whole rant of islam being the fastest, the bestest, the biggest, it has to then take in the realities I have countered with or stop making those stupid claims. I counter xians in the same way when they appeal to awesomeness to defend their POV. Your's and their defence are the same, they are not real (insert faith(tm) here) and this the appeal loses it traction. You both have to own the stupidz if you want to make that claim to fame.
they're not stupid claims. you saying that people raping women, killing innocent people, etc. is a part of islam is making a stupid claim because they are by definition, incorrect. my claims are facts according to the religion itself. not what he said or she said. your claims are "proven" with pictures, what some people say about the religion, the media... everything but the actual source ie. the book itself. it doesnt matter how many people say that killing innocent people is part of islam an it doesnt matter how many sick people perform these acts, that doesnt make it part of the religion. that just makes them sick people that claim to be part of something that they're not practicing. like a christian that never prays or goes to church, they can say they are a christian but really, some just believe in god and don't realize that they are actually agnostic. they dont practice the religion or they say this or that when its not part of christianity at all. but hey they said it and you have a picture and a letter from an x-christian but i guess that would be enough evidence for you...
and what parallels do you see with christianity and islam? i dont know why you claim to know enough about the religion when you have not researched the religion. you just listen to what he said or she said... but hey whatever works i guess...
After 20 pages we've come into one result ...
"Christian Bible is not gods words"
Thank you
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
