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Unread 03-11-2011, 03:51 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,292 posts, read 3,001,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Here's one. God wants us to understand and experience what it is like to NOT know if there is a god. This can teach us plenty about hope and faith.
That is illogical. As an atheist, I am pretty certain there is no god or gods for that matter, gods are the constructs of man's imagination nothing more
Quote:
Yes, but you must realize Revelations is highly symbolic and heavily debated what any of those symbols actually mean.
Surely I do not need to cite chapter and verse, heaven is pretty well described and writing this off to symbolic is a cop out. The bible is inerrant or not? What else do you base your beliefs on?
Quote:
Come on seeker. We're having a discussion here about what heaven could be like. Apparently you "imagine" it will be terrible. You are welcome to that belief. (I realize you don't believe there is any heaven). But don't nitpick that I also "imagine" what it could be like. We are all "imagining". You too... you are just "imagining" it would be terrible to support your belief that it doesn't exist. Effectively: heaven must be terrible so it can't exist. If you don't want to discuss it no problem.
No I am open to discussion but I only deal in reality not imagination. I do not have to imagine what heaven will be like, xian theology has made it pretty clear what to expect and it is nothing to get me even remotely excited. Even as a believer I had a hard time wrapping my mind around the heaven concept, the most exiting part was the judgment like the songs Ray Boltz sang before he admitted he is gay the one drop of blood song comes to mind. I do not think many xians have thought the idea through of eternal life with nothing really to do other than one long drawn out church service sucking up to yahweh for not casting you into the LoF
Quote:
Ok, I guess I'm just asking you to try to think beyond the carnal for a moment.
Well heaven is only explained in carnal terms as it does not exist. But like everything in xianity and the bible, you can get it to say whatever you want it to say.

If Uni hell exists, I am going to be there for a very long time cause unless I have a MIB magic pen mind wipe, god is going to get an earful from me every time I get paroled. Why you may ask, cause I believe my moral compass is far better than his and I sure do not hold grudges as long as he does. He is still pissed off at Adam, I mean like dude get over it already.

Once you have taken the red pill, there is no going back.

There are some real good and ironic quotes from the Matrix

Neo: I thought it wasn't real
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real
Neo: If you're killed in the matrix, you die here?
Morpheus: The body cannot live without the mind
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Unread 03-11-2011, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
5,897 posts, read 2,133,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
jimmiej,

Let me add a further clarification.

Are you saying if someone consciously rejects Christ, they are lost, but then later on that same person comes to consciously accept Christ, they are saved?

Because I agree with you on that. And that is completely compatible with the idea of universal salvation.
Yes.

No, it isn't. Nothing in Scripture indicates there is an opportunity to accept Christ after physical death.
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Unread 03-11-2011, 08:30 PM
 
5,993 posts, read 3,386,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Yes.

No, it isn't. Nothing in Scripture indicates there is an opportunity to accept Christ after physical death.
Ah but now we are to a different topic. Your original challenge was to show how John 3:36 fits with universalism, and I just did. There is nothing in John 3:36 about any time restriction or deadline.

So you now agree with me in John 3:36 that says even if you have rejected Christ and God's wrath is remaining on you - you can still be saved if you believe and repent and come back to Christ. Therefore there is nothing final about John 3:36 that would preclude universal salvation. Are you eating your hat yet?

Anyway, on your new point: I believe it is quite the opposite - there is nothing in scripture that indicates there is no opportunity to accept Christ after physical death. Typically Heb 9:27 would be quoted at this point, but that is speaking of judgment - judgment is good because it sets things right and teaches righteousness.

In fact God has declared that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to Him. Swearing allegiance means swearing an oath of loyalty - you cannot swear a false oath of loyalty because it wouldn't be an oath of loyalty then. (Isaiah 45:23, Phil 2:9-11, Psalm 22:27).

Everyone will turn back to God (Psalm 22:27), everyone will praise God joyfully (Rev 5:13). God has declared it. Its good news for ALL MEN just like the angels said (Luke 2:10).
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Unread 03-11-2011, 08:37 PM
 
5,993 posts, read 3,386,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post

The saddest thing I witnessed was when my mom passed away last year crying out to an invisible god what she deserved to get this. She had one of the most painful cancers fortunately she did not suffer too long and just like my dad who died of Alzheimer's both had served a non existent god for over 60 years w/o once backsliding. They are together now in the same grave and that is all.

If god was real, then these two folk would have passed peacefully in their sleep w/o the need for a disease to take them in suffering. Both of them held on for dear life and it was me holding their hands that told them to let go. My dad was 81 when he died and my mom 87.

So I seriously doubt god would make a personal appearance to prove his existence cause if I was him, I would be embarrassed.
SeekerSA, I'm sorry your parents had to go through that. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Perhaps we can agree at least they are at peace now.

In any case you are getting into the "problem of evil/suffering" ie. why does God let bad things happen to good people. There are pages that could be written about that - best left for another topic, I don't want to derail the discussion about universalism any more than we already have.
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Unread 03-11-2011, 09:00 PM
 
5,993 posts, read 3,386,791 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
That is illogical.
Of course its logical, why would it not be? If God wants us to experience what it is like to not have certainty in knowing the existence of God, He can't very well reveal Himself to us all at once now can He?

Quote:
As an atheist, I am pretty certain there is no god or gods for that matter, gods are the constructs of man's imagination nothing more

Surely I do not need to cite chapter and verse, heaven is pretty well described and writing this off to symbolic is a cop out. The bible is inerrant or not? What else do you base your beliefs on?

No I am open to discussion but I only deal in reality not imagination. I do not have to imagine what heaven will be like, xian theology has made it pretty clear what to expect and it is nothing to get me even remotely excited. Even as a believer I had a hard time wrapping my mind around the heaven concept, the most exiting part was the judgment like the songs Ray Boltz sang before he admitted he is gay the one drop of blood song comes to mind. I do not think many xians have thought the idea through of eternal life with nothing really to do other than one long drawn out church service sucking up to yahweh for not casting you into the LoF
"sucking up to yahweh"? Um, no. Again our views are too different here to make much sense of the discussion I think.
Quote:
Well heaven is only explained in carnal terms as it does not exist. But like everything in xianity and the bible, you can get it to say whatever you want it to say.
That is your view point. Sure you can make the bible say whatever you want, but it will not make sense nor be consistent. We see things differently there obviously.

Quote:
If Uni hell exists, I am going to be there for a very long time cause unless I have a MIB magic pen mind wipe, god is going to get an earful from me every time I get paroled. Why you may ask, cause I believe my moral compass is far better than his and I sure do not hold grudges as long as he does. He is still pissed off at Adam, I mean like dude get over it already.
Holding a grudge? Um, no...

Quote:
Once you have taken the red pill, there is no going back.

There are some real good and ironic quotes from the Matrix

Neo: I thought it wasn't real
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real
Neo: If you're killed in the matrix, you die here?
Morpheus: The body cannot live without the mind
That is all fine, you can believe as you wish. You say you are open to discussion but you only want to view things through your atheist mindset. I started discussing in this thread because I was hoping it would not be a typical atheists god/no-god debate. That's what every other thread in this forum is for LOL I joined this discussion simply to share and perhaps shed light on what Christian universalism is about. Not to debate the existence of God, or petty humanistic views of Him. There are other threads for that.
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Unread 03-11-2011, 09:04 PM
 
4,383 posts, read 1,129,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Yes.

No, it isn't. Nothing in Scripture indicates there is an opportunity to accept Christ after physical death.
Where in scripture does it speak of babies getting a free pass to heaven?
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Unread 03-11-2011, 10:34 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,292 posts, read 3,001,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Of course its logical, why would it not be? If God wants us to experience what it is like to not have certainty in knowing the existence of God, He can't very well reveal Himself to us all at once now can He?
This is the CU apologetic meme. IF does not represent anything but conjecture on the part of the believer. You dodged the question when I asked why this omni-* god cannot make a personal appearance for 5 minutes to me. The answer is he can't because he does not exist just like all the norse, greek, roman and pagan gods where xianity got most of its roots from including the alleged existence of jesus. Those other gods are not real but I am sure their adherents thought they were at the time just like you and others believe in this day and age.
Quote:
"sucking up to yahweh"? Um, no. Again our views are too different here to make much sense of the discussion I think.
That is your view point.
What else are you going to do in heaven apart from sucking up 24/infinity? Hell even the most famous hymn Amazing Grace has the lyrics of:

When we've been there ten thousand years, Bright shining as the sun, We've no less days to sing God's praise, Than when we first begun.

This, based on scripture and what is it if not a 24/infinity church service?
Quote:
Sure you can make the bible say whatever you want, but it will not make sense nor be consistent. We see things differently there obviously.
Obviously, but if your position had credibility, you would not need to debate amongst each other whose version is correct and there would be one universal church and not 38000+ xian denominations. The only thing they have in common is that you as a person suck aka the original sin of Adam and that you are not worthy and must pay homage now and then continue after you die just b/c he screwed up his creation in the first place.
Quote:
Holding a grudge? Um, no...
Um, yes, what else is there to motivate you other than the fantasy of immortality. To get this immortality you have to suck up to him now in the case of mainstream or in the case of CU perhaps later. Of course their are proponents in your circles of the OSAS persuasion that will say I am already saved regardless of my current lack of belief. Most atheists I know and have met online are ex theists.
Quote:
That is all fine, you can believe as you wish. You say you are open to discussion but you only want to view things through your atheist mindset.
What mindset should I use? I can counter your stance using a fundie mindset equally well as an atheist mindset. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt etc.
Quote:
I started discussing in this thread because I was hoping it would not be a typical atheists god/no-god debate. That's what every other thread in this forum is for LOL I joined this discussion simply to share and perhaps shed light on what Christian universalism is about. Not to debate the existence of God, or petty humanistic views of Him. There are other threads for that.
CU just like the fundies premise starts with the defacto god exists. All that is different is the attributes of your god version you glean off from the exact same bible. You first need to prove your god exists or the rest becomes simply moot taking points.

Just like heaven or the afterlife and god, these concepts cannot be proven emphatically w/o mass appeals to emotion, personal experiences, alleged authority etc. CU and fundies both believe in hell and all that is different is the duration one spends there. Some CU's will even sweeten the mix further by stating there is no hell whatsoever but that version does not seem to fly anyway. There must be some measure of corrective punishment as no one can get a free pass into heaven.

Remember I defended CU till I realized that this was just another form of wishful thinking.

CU and mainstream both share the POV the bible is infallible, god inspired. CU makes appeals to translation errors in the KJV 20 000 IIRC, neither of you can explain blatant contradictions and these are merely glossed over and the POV of inerrancy remains intact. The truth is men wrote the bible and there was no god to inspire them. I guess the writers never imagined one day literacy would be predominant as opposed to the times it was written. Had they known, they may have tweaked it to pull out all the contradictions.

A simple tenet of faith comes from the 10 commandments where we are promised that god will visit up to the 4th generation iniquities for the sins of the father. Later on we read that the son or father are not responsible for each other's sin, which is it? Both cannot be correct.

The sacrifices were a way to appease this invisible god and later the alleged king David comes to the realization that blood sacrifices were not what god wanted, reiterated in the NT. Oh David allegedly wrote most of the Psalms. Then you FF to the alleged life of jesus and in spite of allegedly being of the bloodline of king David, he introduces a human (pagan) sacrifice concept, that shows real consistency. Of course, your camp and the fundies apologize in the form of revisionist theology yet we are told in no uncertain terms god is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Which is it?

Jesus states he came to fulfill the law of the prophets yet the alleged greater teacher in the form of a converted Paul (damascus road experience) says completely the opposite. Did jesus change his mind again? When he was alive, jesus performs a miracle then instructs the recipient to go to the high priest to make an offering - that sound like he was adhering to the law but then he breaks some of the laws he allegedly wrote via moses in the first place. According to the law, he was NOT w/o sin but he gets a free pass as does his father who is himself as they are god and do what the hell they like. In other cases, he tells them not to tell anyone. He boasts, he does not boast. Not very consistent IMO.

These are but a few of the glaring contradictions in xian theology. There are plenty more.

The only reason that xianity exists today is because the Roman empire made it a state religion. They conveniently merged enough paganism into the mix to make it appealing to the masses then forced people to convert. Politics and religion have always been (mutually beneficial) bedfellows.
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Unread 03-11-2011, 10:56 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,292 posts, read 3,001,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
SeekerSA, I'm sorry your parents had to go through that. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Perhaps we can agree at least they are at peace now.
No they are simply dead.

At peace iro they no longer suffer, yes, but that is because their brains are dust and have no mechanism to experience pain now whatsoever.
Quote:
In any case you are getting into the "problem of evil/suffering" ie. why does God let bad things happen to good people. There are pages that could be written about that - best left for another topic, I don't want to derail the discussion about universalism any more than we already have.
No I am not getting into the problem of evil or suffering. **** happens and is no respecter of persons.

The point you seemed to have missed that in the throes of death, they did try and hang on. Even after 60 odd years, there were still doubts. At the time I observed this seeing I nursed them both to final breath, they were heavily drugged for pain. Questioning god as to "why me" was a valid question that came from their primordial self.

Oh, and on my fathers side, his 6 brothers and sisters were all xian and barring the eldest who was killed in a car accident, ALL of them went with Alzheimer's. The youngest of my dad's brothers is still alive but is already in the mid stages of the disease. He was a preacher but retired. My aunt who is the second youngest also had Parkinson's disease, a double whammy. Of course this is due to bad genes as a near 100% rate of the same disease in siblings is not common.

I am not bitter, they had a good innings just a crappy demise.
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Unread 03-12-2011, 12:24 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,570,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi rifleman I believe that God will reconsile all things to himself. All men will be saved. It is not safe passage into heaven. All men will be judged ,if not in this life than in the next. If you are Christ's elect you will judge yourself and repent and be converted. This is not easy.

Look at all the apostle Paul went through, Beaten more than once, shipwreaked, jailed, scorned, and had a demon placed inside him that would buffet him to keep him humble. Most of us can not comprehend what he had to endue and many of us could not endure what he did.

Those who are not the elect will be reserrected and then will be judged and will repent and then be cleansed. It will not be pretty or easy for them. The will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. They will reap what they have sown and will learn rightousness but it will be a hard lesson but they all will repent and be cleansed.

Anyone who thinks that they can do what ever they want just waltz into heaven are in for a rude awakening. There will be a judgement and consquence for all we have done. Bit in the ens God will save all his children.
I would have to agree with what SShultz said here as a Universalist. I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't know how many Universalist responses you have received but I would like to reiterate and clarify that Unitarian Universalists are completely non-related to Christian Universalists.

CU's believe that there is only ONE way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. But I'm sure you know this already. SShultz said it right, there will be a time of "refining" for all nonbelievers but CU's do not believe that any punishment/trials will be forever as ET teaches. It is foolish to try and understand the ways of God, but as a Universalist and simply a person with some damn common sense I understand that God is loving and He WILL NOT be condemning his creation to an eternity of torture. Ain't gonna happen.

As far as what happens to unbelievers and those of other faiths.....that's completely in God's hands and I feel sure that how one lived their life will play a major part in what chastisement they will receive. And yes, the Bible is quite clear on the fact that EVERY knee will bow, EVERY tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord. When the time arrives, we will be more than happy to do so.
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Unread 03-12-2011, 01:15 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,292 posts, read 3,001,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
-snip-
As far as what happens to unbelievers and those of other faiths.....that's completely in God's hands and I feel sure that how one lived their life will play a major part in what chastisement they will receive. And yes, the Bible is quite clear on the fact that EVERY knee will bow, EVERY tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord. When the time arrives, we will be more than happy to do so.
Not me sister. Unless this proverbial knee bowing is accompanied by a blow to the back of the knees with an iron rod and some form of Guantanamo styled water boarding.

My response will be where is the nearest exit. Of course a Men in Black mind wipe flash might make me do otherwise but then I would merely be zombiefied and it will not matter one way or the other. I will not be aware of who I was or where I am. The eternal church service maybe more tolerable. I may even sing the Trio's song "Da Da Da I don't love you you don't love me Da Da Da..."

When I die,i know that is it but if I am perhaps wrong I would still choose oblivion. Maybe i will get a tattoo that says "Please return to sender/grave"
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