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Old 07-25-2007, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Florida and East "by God" Tennessee
1,889 posts, read 2,737,069 times
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can you provide some scriptural support?

Eph 2: 8-10 (NLT)
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you canít take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are Godís masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 8,249,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
Please elaborate on what you mean with your first statement. I read it as needing neither. Most belief structures I am aware require one or the other as their criteria.

Those that do not have belief are already condemned and have all their works, good and bad, weighed and judged accordingly. Condemnation in of itself warrants punishment, so a non-believer who faithfully followed every commandment of Jesus throughout his entire life and never, even from birth, committed a single errant act aside from rejecting Jesus as savior would still be condemned and punished. His punishment would undoubtedly be the lightest possible compared to all other condemned, but yes, he would receive punishment for his lack of faith.
Catholics believe you need both to be redeemed. Some here have posted that you need only to accept Christ as your savior and that works don't matter one way or the other. That's what I meant.

So this "lightest" punishment possible, is it permanent?
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 164,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
How can Jesus send us to Hell if he is compassionate? He doesn't, he only decides if we accepted him. God's role has no compassion, only justice so he can assign punishment or reward without regard to compassion as God is judging works and not people. Jesus forgives, God judges.
First of all, your entire analysis is very well put, and thought out.

But regarding this last paragraph, are we then to throw out the notion that God is Love? Part of love is compassion, and if God has none...
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 164,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Because ultimately, he is. Jesus would not have that authority during the judgement day were it not given him by his father. Also, Jesus had not been crowned King of God's kingdom yet at that time...that appointment was not given him until later.
Are you saying that both judge? Because Jesus explicitly says that the Father judges no one. This statement also pokes holes in johnrex62's explanation as well...although his (and yours) are very good.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,622,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Are you saying that both judge? Because Jesus explicitly says that the Father judges no one. This statement also pokes holes in johnrex62's explanation as well...although his (and yours) are very good.
In the Hebrew scriptures, Jehovah God is identified as the "judge of all the earth" (Gen 18:25). Similarly, in the Christian Greek scritures he is called the 'Judge of All' (Heb 12:23). He hs, though deputized his son to do that judging for him (John 5:22). The bible speaks of Jesus as being appointed, decreed, and 'destined' to do judging . That Jesus is thus authorized by God resloves any seeming contradiction between the text that says that individuals will 'stand before the judgement seat of God" and the verse that says they will 'Be made manifest before the judgement seat of the Christ." (Ro 14:10; 2 Co 5:10)
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 164,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
In the Hebrew scriptures, Jehovah God is identified as the "judge of all the earth" (Gen 18:25). Similarly, in the Christian Greek scritures he is called the 'Judge of All' (Heb 12:23). He hs, though deputized his son to do that judging for him (John 5:22). The bible speaks of Jesus as being appointed, decreed, and 'destined' to do judging . That Jesus is thus authorized by God resloves any seeming contradiction between the text that says that individuals will 'stand before the judgement seat of God" and the verse that says they will 'Be made manifest before the judgement seat of the Christ." (Ro 14:10; 2 Co 5:10)
So you would agree then that God has handed over every person--living or dead, Christian or non--to Jesus for judgement?

In other words, Jesus holds the keys to death, hades, and the grave? All is in His hands?
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Between Here and There
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Ok so if one believe's in the Trinity (no offense Alice) then this question is really moot because Jesus and God are the same, right?
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,622,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
So you would agree then that God has handed over every person--living or dead, Christian or non--to Jesus for judgement?

In other words, Jesus holds the keys to death, hades, and the grave? All is in His hands?

Yes, he is the appointed king of God's kingdom...the chief agent.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,061 posts, read 5,522,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
Catholics believe you need both to be redeemed. Some here have posted that you need only to accept Christ as your savior and that works don't matter one way or the other. That's what I meant.

So this "lightest" punishment possible, is it permanent?
I believe salvation is obtained purely from faith. Works are commanded, but not as a requirement for salvation. Works are part of God's/Jesus' will for followers, but will vary according to ability. Works are the basis for reward, but not strictly required for salvation. Of course, a true faith will also draw the Holy Spirit who will instruct the heart on the will of God, so it would be difficult to truly believe and do absolutely no good works and still live with one's conscience.

No, I do not think the punishment is permanent. Revelations chapter 20 describes the final judgment where Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire and declares this to be the Second Death. It does not deal with hell any further, so I believe that the soul ceases to exist after this second death.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,061 posts, read 5,522,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Are you saying that both judge? Because Jesus explicitly says that the Father judges no one. This statement also pokes holes in johnrex62's explanation as well...although his (and yours) are very good.
Not true Jeff. I stated that God judges works, not people. If you are judging a baking contest, you reward a person, but only judge a product of that person.
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