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Old 07-26-2007, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,284,420 times
Reputation: 21122
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1410OC View Post
that was no reference to YOU!
No, not to worry, anytime someone mentions "dark" and "heretical" we assume it means Jeff!
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 167,329 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Jeff, don't get me wrong. I think youre line of thinking is very charitable and loving but can you explain to me one more time your feelings on the scripture in Matthew 25 that talks about an 'everlasting cutting off' ? And what about those that God found necessary to destroy in the Old Testatament, such as Pharoah and his men (in the red sea) or Korah, Dathan and Abiram? If they were to be later saved, don't you think there would be some evidence that points to that in the scriptures?
Well, didn't Jesus go to "hell" and preach to them and lead captivity captive? I can't imagine anyone choosing to stay when being offered a way out.

Matthew 25:46--the bain of Universalists. (Don't be offended, it's the words of Jesus so I don't really feel that way ).

In the interest of complete honesty and forthrightness, this is the one and only verse in the Bible I have a difficult time figuring out. Yes yes I know--"It's quite easy if you just take your heresy, Jeff, and shove where the sun don't shine!"

So what theological issues are really in contention here? There are several I think, but the overriding one is the nature of Godís love (or mercy) and Godís righteousness (or justice). How will these two (seemingly conflicting) attributes of God ultimately influence what God will actually do with all us sinners - believers and unbelievers? And then secondarily (or perhaps primarily) what does Christís death and resurrection have to do with it all?

Now we find ourselves at the very soul of Christianity. And this explains why the question of universal restoration pushes peopleís buttons and stirs the emotions to the boiling point. It is why some have to use pseudonyms when they write about it--like all of us here on city-data!

There are many who believe that Christianity has no meaning without an eternal hell. To them, a temporary hell - regardless of how severe - is no hell at all. Being saved from such a hell depreciates Christís atonement, compromises Godís justice and makes being a Christian meaningless. Whatís the point, after all, if everyone will be saved in the end? Why not eat, drink and be merry and believe whatever you want? Nothing matters anyway. (How many times have I been asked these questions? )

On the other hand, universalist theology believes that Christianity has no meaning with an eternal hell. An eternal hell represents the ultimate failure of God and a permanent victory for sin, death and Satan. It makes manís will sovereign over Godís will, compromises Godís power, love and mercy, and ultimately turns Christianity into a self-centered, exclusive, highly judgmental religion based on fear. It is, in the end, no different from any other religion - where we are ultimately responsible for saving ourselves and others.

I believe that theological exit strategies too often lead us astray, in circles, or down blind alleys (as anyone who frequents this religion forum can attest!). We are so desperate to escape our Biblical paradox that we will, at great cost, reason our way out of it. You, Alice, can find strong scriptural support for annihalation, orthodoxy can for eternal torment, and I can for universal reconciliation. All of this is found in one book. So, either it's all a bunch of crap--or the whole of scripture points to one thing--God being in control, God doing what He wants, and God being love. This, and many other things, lead me to believe what I do, and to continue studying Matthew 25:46 and more importantly, praying about it, until God gives the understanding.

Maybe He wont. Maybe He will. My faith in Him is unwaivering irregardless!
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 167,329 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
No, not to worry, anytime someone mentions "dark" and "heretical" we assume it means Jeff!
It is my signature, after all!
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 167,329 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Well, didn't Jesus go to "hell" and preach to them and lead captivity captive? I can't imagine anyone choosing to stay when being offered a way out.

Matthew 25:46--the bain of Universalists. (Don't be offended, it's the words of Jesus so I don't really feel that way ).

In the interest of complete honesty and forthrightness, this is the one and only verse in the Bible I have a difficult time figuring out. Yes yes I know--"It's quite easy if you just take your heresy, Jeff, and shove where the sun don't shine!"

So what theological issues are really in contention here? There are several I think, but the overriding one is the nature of Godís love (or mercy) and Godís righteousness (or justice). How will these two (seemingly conflicting) attributes of God ultimately influence what God will actually do with all us sinners - believers and unbelievers? And then secondarily (or perhaps primarily) what does Christís death and resurrection have to do with it all?

Now we find ourselves at the very soul of Christianity. And this explains why the question of universal restoration pushes peopleís buttons and stirs the emotions to the boiling point. It is why some have to use pseudonyms when they write about it--like all of us here on city-data!

There are many who believe that Christianity has no meaning without an eternal hell. To them, a temporary hell - regardless of how severe - is no hell at all. Being saved from such a hell depreciates Christís atonement, compromises Godís justice and makes being a Christian meaningless. Whatís the point, after all, if everyone will be saved in the end? Why not eat, drink and be merry and believe whatever you want? Nothing matters anyway. (How many times have I been asked these questions? )

On the other hand, universalist theology believes that Christianity has no meaning with an eternal hell. An eternal hell represents the ultimate failure of God and a permanent victory for sin, death and Satan. It makes manís will sovereign over Godís will, compromises Godís power, love and mercy, and ultimately turns Christianity into a self-centered, exclusive, highly judgmental religion based on fear. It is, in the end, no different from any other religion - where we are ultimately responsible for saving ourselves and others.

I believe that theological exit strategies too often lead us astray, in circles, or down blind alleys (as anyone who frequents this religion forum can attest!). We are so desperate to escape our Biblical paradox that we will, at great cost, reason our way out of it. You, Alice, can find strong scriptural support for annihalation, orthodoxy can for eternal torment, and I can for universal reconciliation. All of this is found in one book. So, either it's all a bunch of crap--or the whole of scripture points to one thing--God being in control, God doing what He wants, and God being love. This, and many other things, lead me to believe what I do, and to continue studying Matthew 25:46 and more importantly, praying about it, until God gives the understanding.

Maybe He wont. Maybe He will. My faith in Him is unwaivering irregardless!
And yes, everyone, all of this could have been summed up in 3 words:

I don't know!
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 167,329 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1410OC View Post
...I suspect you'd find a couple of my other posts interesting.....

[and I COULD tell you which ONES, but hey, that'd spoil the scavenger hunt! LOL]

Happy hunting!
I shall hunt!
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:41 AM
 
101 posts, read 142,640 times
Reputation: 32
good heretic, good heretic! LOL
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,623,911 times
Reputation: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Well, didn't Jesus go to "hell" and preach to them and lead captivity captive? I can't imagine anyone choosing to stay when being offered a way out.

Matthew 25:46--the bain of Universalists. (Don't be offended, it's the words of Jesus so I don't really feel that way ).

In the interest of complete honesty and forthrightness, this is the one and only verse in the Bible I have a difficult time figuring out. Yes yes I know--"It's quite easy if you just take your heresy, Jeff, and shove where the sun don't shine!"

So what theological issues are really in contention here? There are several I think, but the overriding one is the nature of Godís love (or mercy) and Godís righteousness (or justice). How will these two (seemingly conflicting) attributes of God ultimately influence what God will actually do with all us sinners - believers and unbelievers? And then secondarily (or perhaps primarily) what does Christís death and resurrection have to do with it all?

Now we find ourselves at the very soul of Christianity. And this explains why the question of universal restoration pushes peopleís buttons and stirs the emotions to the boiling point. It is why some have to use pseudonyms when they write about it--like all of us here on city-data!

There are many who believe that Christianity has no meaning without an eternal hell. To them, a temporary hell - regardless of how severe - is no hell at all. Being saved from such a hell depreciates Christís atonement, compromises Godís justice and makes being a Christian meaningless. Whatís the point, after all, if everyone will be saved in the end? Why not eat, drink and be merry and believe whatever you want? Nothing matters anyway. (How many times have I been asked these questions? )

On the other hand, universalist theology believes that Christianity has no meaning with an eternal hell. An eternal hell represents the ultimate failure of God and a permanent victory for sin, death and Satan. It makes manís will sovereign over Godís will, compromises Godís power, love and mercy, and ultimately turns Christianity into a self-centered, exclusive, highly judgmental religion based on fear. It is, in the end, no different from any other religion - where we are ultimately responsible for saving ourselves and others.

I believe that theological exit strategies too often lead us astray, in circles, or down blind alleys (as anyone who frequents this religion forum can attest!). We are so desperate to escape our Biblical paradox that we will, at great cost, reason our way out of it. You, Alice, can find strong scriptural support for annihalation, orthodoxy can for eternal torment, and I can for universal reconciliation. All of this is found in one book. So, either it's all a bunch of crap--or the whole of scripture points to one thing--God being in control, God doing what He wants, and God being love. This, and many other things, lead me to believe what I do, and to continue studying Matthew 25:46 and more importantly, praying about it, until God gives the understanding.

Maybe He wont. Maybe He will. My faith in Him is unwaivering irregardless!
I'm not sure what you mean about Jesus going to 'hell'. The scriptures that mention his body not seeing corruption in 'hell' are, of course, just referring to his time in the grave.

Matthew is really the only scripture you have trouble with?
Revelation 19:17,18 also announces the destruction of ungodly men in rather graphic terms.
1 John 2:16,17 states that the world is PASSING AWAY and so is it's desire but he that DOES the will of God remains forever. If that is the case than how can those who practice bad things be saved? Someone is going to be passing away, right?
Rev 21:8 has been discussed before but says quite clearly that the ungodly people who choose not to accept god will find their portion in the 'second death', without hope of ressurection.
2 Thess 1:8,9 speaks of the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction...

Ps 37:34 says 'when the wicked ones are cut off, you will see it'

Matt 24:37-39 brings up the flood and says that the wicked 'took no note' and were swept away...there is no evidence that these will return, otherwise the warning would be a moot point.

I truly believe God is loving beyond our comprehension and that is why he has been so patient, so as to allow as many to 'attain to repentance' as possible. This is also the reason many will be given a second chance after their ressurection. But to say that he has 'failed' because some will not receive salvation is not sensible, to me. It simply means that He has respected the decision of everyone involved. After all, if 'failure' were to really be an issue, wouldnt his 'failure' have started with Satan himself? And Satan will definitely be destroyed forever, as Revelation makes clear, and not given a second chance. So why would God feel different towards thoe who follow him?
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,062 posts, read 5,526,242 times
Reputation: 4234
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
No, I wouldn't create them in the first place. It would be selfish of me to create them just so I could enjoy them for a short period if in the end they ended up in pain and agony forever.
God never claimed not to be selfish. In fact he does claim to be a jealous god. I am not going to try to define God's nature in this regard any further than than.
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,284,420 times
Reputation: 21122
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
God never claimed not to be selfish. In fact he does claim to be a jealous god. I am not going to try to define God's nature in this regard any further than than.
Just for the record, in case I haven't made this well-known,, I totally do not believe in universalism or predestination, but I do want to interject this one thing here.

No, God never specifically said He wasn't "selfish," but I think He has certainly implied that when He speaks repeatedly in scripture of His mercy and lovingkindness and justice. (I think you can have a righteous jealousy without being selfish.)
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 167,329 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I'm not sure what you mean about Jesus going to 'hell'. The scriptures that mention his body not seeing corruption in 'hell' are, of course, just referring to his time in the grave.
I forgot that you are one of the few people who don't just read the word "hell" and leave it alone. So you know all about sheol, Hades, ect. All translated into one pagan English word.

Yes, in the grave, but the point is he lead the captives out of the grave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Matthew is really the only scripture you have trouble with??
Yes. I have done it so much lately (not with you) that I REALLY don't want to have a battle of the Bible verses again. Let's just say that as I posted, you, I and those that believe in eternal torments can all come up with verses that support our respective beliefs and seemingly contradict each other. I know, Alice, that you believe your exegesis to be competely sound. I believe mine to be largely so as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I truly believe God is loving beyond our comprehension and that is why he has been so patient, so as to allow as many to 'attain to repentance' as possible. This is also the reason many will be given a second chance after their ressurection. But to say that he has 'failed' because some will not receive salvation is not sensible, to me.
If it is not failure, then why does the Bible say He desires all come to Him, and that He will have what He desires?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
It simply means that He has respected the decision of everyone involved.
It is not a true decision when made by a fallible human, say an athiest, who doesn't even believe there is a decision to be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
After all, if 'failure' were to really be an issue, wouldnt his 'failure' have started with Satan himself? And Satan will definitely be destroyed forever, as Revelation makes clear, and not given a second chance. So why would God feel different towards thoe who follow him?
Well, the Bible says that God "created the Waster to destroy". It also says He created evil. This leads me to believe that Satan has fulfilled a purpose--definately not a failure.
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