Why does God need us so badly ? (soul, churches, atheist)

[Mooseketeer]

As an Atheist I have always been utterly puzzled by the fact that one thing which seems to bind all religions is this need for prayers, rituals and other flim-flammery.

Suspending all disbelief for a minute and assuming there is indeed a supreme creator, a maker of all which is within our Universe,be they planets, stars, asteroids, single cell organisms, humans, flora, fauna etc... basically an omnipotent ,omniscient supernatural being why would this creature/being need and require us to accept his/her presence and worship him /her ?

Why the need for elaborate rituals, scriptures, why is it so important to this amazing creature beyond compare of such potency that he/she can wipe out an entire planet with simply the merest click of his fingers ?

What does it matter to this creature whether we even acknowledge it exists at all ?

Why do we need to go down on one knee and pray to something we cannot see and has no physical entity?

Why all the mind games ?

Is this God so needy and so arrogant that he/she needs constant reassurance and adulation ?

How does adoration of this creator actually enrich the human experience ?

Why should all this frippery of ritualisation and worship be important to someone so powerful and so wise ?

Wise people in my experience do not want to be worshipped, do not expect it and certainly will not punish those who do not.

Only despots and tyrants expect this level of constant adulation and like God seem to thrive on instilling the terror of death and pain on the little ants we all are.

I could just about get to grasp with the concept of a creator. Just. But all the accoutrements of religion , from commandments to scriptures, religious rituals, prayers seem to me to put it mildly petty and rather pointless.


Why is God not content with human beings who are decent, kind and morally upright, people who no matter what their faith ( or lack of thereof ) contribute in a positive manner to this universe he/she created ?

I simply cannot comprehend the concept that a supreme creator would actually need or want us to waste time worshipping him/her when our times would be better utilised becoming better people in a practical manner.

Where is the logic in prayer ? God is really that insecure that he/she needs to feel loved and revered ? That to me sounds utterly bizarre unless God is a human being with very low self esteem and a bullying streak...


We need to constantly abase ourselves to please him/her ? We need to never question his/her desires for his creation ?

All I see is mind games at best and I do remain puzzled.

To me the very fact that we have rituals and religious flim-flammery in so many different shades and colours around the world indicates that if there is a creator we have created those rituals to make ourselves feel more secure somehow, regaining a modicum of power over this creature. And as such all those rituals could be discarded easily by believers.

Trying to appease the beast so to speak. Humans are so afraid of God that they need to cloak everything in bizarre traditions and rituals. There is nothing more human to me as an Anthropologist than rituals. We all need them and we all have them be they religious or not. They make us feel more in control of a situation we usually have no control of.

But with religion we seem to go to extremes and seem to want and influence something which seems already pre-ordained and that we have no control of ultimately with petty little puzzling gestures.


Basically why would God need our prayers, our worship, our stunning sacred buildings and artefacts ... why do so many people feel that a deity of such power need such pointless and petty things to be appeased.

And why does someone like God need to be appeased in the first place ?

Only humans could be that arrogant and thus God was created rather than the other way around.


I remain bemused.

[cablejockey]

In some beliefs, if the god has nobody beleiving in it it, it dwindles and fades in power. Just something to think about....

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by cablejockey

In some beliefs, if the god has nobody beleiving in it it, it dwindles and fades in power. Just something to think about....

Well that makes sense to me. God only exists because we allow him/her to.

[SeekerSA]

I guess one could call it a prime consciousness or group consciousness. Probably some tribal need to be part of a group, aka group think.

It is designed as far as possible to disperse with as much individuality as possible and is achieved by making one feel they have to conform and pay homage to a god that is both benevolent and angry. It grows to the point where you are made to believe that you will never be good enough and have to always perform these rituals to appease this god.

In the background, the leaders are orchestrating this and benefit by being one of the provocateurs.

Even w/o religion, this grouping will take place in a tribal sense and there will be leaders whose authority is not to be challenged. The leaders will surround themselves with bullies be they big and nasty or kind and persuasive. These then get to share some of the authority and a lesser respect that the leader has. The immediate hierarchy will set the rules for the tribe and the leader will be consulted on difficult matters.

You find this in monarchies and from a religious aspect, the monarchies were the target of the church and once the monarchies were on board, the masses would be controlled by the monarchy and the church.

In modern times, this model is used in business where there are VP's and then the plebs that actually do the work. Homage needs to be paid to the ruling class for fear of losing the job you have, challenging the status quo is seen as disruptive and unless you can order a strike, you probably are powerless to change or challenge anything.

In churches you have to sign off on an article of faith or SoF when you gain membership. You go with the flow of how they do things or find another church that suits you.

The rituals are merely a byproduct of induction to give the people something to do. As long as you are paying a tithe, the primary reason for being a member is met. Everything else is window dressing.

The system works so well now that it is the defacto way of doing it and most do not even realize why they are doing it.

These structures and rituals you will find everywhere. It is only religion that has the folk in a relationship with a mutual invisible friend. The rituals benefit the folk performing them. A whole industry has been spawned on P&W music which competes with secular music as far as possible using the same styles as secular music. This brings us to the ritual of P&W where the congregants participate in the entertainment from the P&W team much like a sing along in a pub except this is tailored to lull people into a false sense of receptiveness to the sermon that follows.

The churches that still do say one or two hymns then the sermon and maybe a close off with a hymn do not have the same success as the evangelicals model. Having been a P&W leader, you are trained in how to draw up a program, meet with the pastor to align with the word he wants to bring, the fast tempo songs and then the slower more hypnotic ones etc.

It boils down to just another form of entertainment.

It fills a need they created in your psyche and thus you keep coming back for more. You get to partake in communion which is an activity that joins the folk together. This is holy and thus you must be sanctified to partake of this, you get a chance to make right when they lay on a guilt trip of how special communion is and should not be done for the sake of doing it.

In this description, the god factor plays very little role as there are enough distractions to make the group believe they did something god would be pleased with. The holiness factor disappears promptly when you exit the church. The same can be said for the office/workplace when you leave the building.

So in the end, it is nothing more than a tribal thing we inherited from our ancient ancestors. The pastor plays the role of the ancient medicine man or witchdoctor, one who apparently is more connected to the god than the tribe are.

[cruxan]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

As an Atheist I have always been utterly puzzled by the fact that one thing which seems to bind all religions is this need for prayers, rituals and other flim-flammery.

Suspending all disbelief for a minute and assuming there is indeed a supreme creator, a maker of all which is within our Universe,be they planets, stars, asteroids, single cell organisms, humans, flora, fauna etc... basically an omnipotent ,omniscient supernatural being why would this creature/being need and require us to accept his/her presence and worship him /her ?

Why the need for elaborate rituals, scriptures, why is it so important to this amazing creature beyond compare of such potency that he/she can wipe out an entire planet with simply the merest click of his fingers ?

What does it matter to this creature whether we even acknowledge it exists at all ?

Why do we need to go down on one knee and pray to something we cannot see and has no physical entity?

Why all the mind games ?

Is this God so needy and so arrogant that he/she needs constant reassurance and adulation ?

How does adoration of this creator actually enrich the human experience ?

Why should all this frippery of ritualisation and worship be important to someone so powerful and so wise ?

Wise people in my experience do not want to be worshipped, do not expect it and certainly will not punish those who do not.

Only despots and tyrants expect this level of constant adulation and like God seem to thrive on instilling the terror of death and pain on the little ants we all are.

I could just about get to grasp with the concept of a creator. Just. But all the accoutrements of religion , from commandments to scriptures, religious rituals, prayers seem to me to put it mildly petty and rather pointless.


Why is God not content with human beings who are decent, kind and morally upright, people who no matter what their faith ( or lack of thereof ) contribute in a positive manner to this universe he/she created ?

I simply cannot comprehend the concept that a supreme creator would actually need or want us to waste time worshipping him/her when our times would be better utilised becoming better people in a practical manner.

Where is the logic in prayer ? God is really that insecure that he/she needs to feel loved and revered ? That to me sounds utterly bizarre unless God is a human being with very low self esteem and a bullying streak...


We need to constantly abase ourselves to please him/her ? We need to never question his/her desires for his creation ?

All I see is mind games at best and I do remain puzzled.

To me the very fact that we have rituals and religious flim-flammery in so many different shades and colours around the world indicates that if there is a creator we have created those rituals to make ourselves feel more secure somehow, regaining a modicum of power over this creature. And as such all those rituals could be discarded easily by believers.

Trying to appease the beast so to speak. Humans are so afraid of God that they need to cloak everything in bizarre traditions and rituals. There is nothing more human to me as an Anthropologist than rituals. We all need them and we all have them be they religious or not. They make us feel more in control of a situation we usually have no control of.

But with religion we seem to go to extremes and seem to want and influence something which seems already pre-ordained and that we have no control of ultimately with petty little puzzling gestures.


Basically why would God need our prayers, our worship, our stunning sacred buildings and artefacts ... why do so many people feel that a deity of such power need such pointless and petty things to be appeased.

And why does someone like God need to be appeased in the first place ?

Only humans could be that arrogant and thus God was created rather than the other way around.


I remain bemused.

hmmm,, why do humans need god?? he never does anything anyway

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

I guess one could call it a prime consciousness or group consciousness. Probably some tribal need to be part of a group, aka group think.

It is designed as far as possible to disperse with as much individuality as possible and is achieved by making one feel they have to conform and pay homage to a god that is both benevolent and angry. It grows to the point where you are made to believe that you will never be good enough and have to always perform these rituals to appease this god.

In the background, the leaders are orchestrating this and benefit by being one of the provocateurs.

Even w/o religion, this grouping will take place in a tribal sense and there will be leaders whose authority is not to be challenged. The leaders will surround themselves with bullies be they big and nasty or kind and persuasive. These then get to share some of the authority and a lesser respect that the leader has. The immediate hierarchy will set the rules for the tribe and the leader will be consulted on difficult matters.

You find this in monarchies and from a religious aspect, the monarchies were the target of the church and once the monarchies were on board, the masses would be controlled by the monarchy and the church.

In modern times, this model is used in business where there are VP's and then the plebs that actually do the work. Homage needs to be paid to the ruling class for fear of losing the job you have, challenging the status quo is seen as disruptive and unless you can order a strike, you probably are powerless to change or challenge anything.

In churches you have to sign off on an article of faith or SoF when you gain membership. You go with the flow of how they do things or find another church that suits you.

The rituals are merely a byproduct of induction to give the people something to do. As long as you are paying a tithe, the primary reason for being a member is met. Everything else is window dressing.

The system works so well now that it is the defacto way of doing it and most do not even realize why they are doing it.

These structures and rituals you will find everywhere. It is only religion that has the folk in a relationship with a mutual invisible friend. The rituals benefit the folk performing them. A whole industry has been spawned on P&W music which competes with secular music as far as possible using the same styles as secular music. This brings us to the ritual of P&W where the congregants participate in the entertainment from the P&W team much like a sing along in a pub except this is tailored to lull people into a false sense of receptiveness to the sermon that follows.

The churches that still do say one or two hymns then the sermon and maybe a close off with a hymn do not have the same success as the evangelicals model. Having been a P&W leader, you are trained in how to draw up a program, meet with the pastor to align with the word he wants to bring, the fast tempo songs and then the slower more hypnotic ones etc.

It boils down to just another form of entertainment.

It fills a need they created in your psyche and thus you keep coming back for more. You get to partake in communion which is an activity that joins the folk together. This is holy and thus you must be sanctified to partake of this, you get a chance to make right when they lay on a guilt trip of how special communion is and should not be done for the sake of doing it.

In this description, the god factor plays very little role as there are enough distractions to make the group believe they did something god would be pleased with. The holiness factor disappears promptly when you exit the church. The same can be said for the office/workplace when you leave the building.

So in the end, it is nothing more than a tribal thing we inherited from our ancient ancestors. The pastor plays the role of the ancient medicine man or witchdoctor, one who apparently is more connected to the god than the tribe are.

I completely agree and yet most believers seem unable to drop the rituals and simply have a one on one relationship to their creator so to speak.

Many faiths seem to require all the flim flammery as though their God(s) intrinsically require recongnition, constant praise and worship, lots of prayers and a lot various rituals. So much of religion seems to be based on appeasing the deity and only being give a certain reward for certain duties being performed. A juicy bone being dangled in front of the believer so to speak.

I just find the whole concept so devoid of logic and reason it is beyond bafflement for me.

Herd mentality is indeed very strong but why would anyone believe any supreme being has need of us ? I suppose it makes one feel better, we all need to be needed and wanted. It makes us feel important somehow as though we have even the remotest chance of influencing our "fate".

[SeekerSA]

I was made to praise you
I was made to glorify your name
in every circumstance
to find a chance to thank you
I was made to love you
I was made to worship at your feet
And to obey you, Lord
I was made for you

I will always praise you
I will always glorify your name
in every circumstance
I'll find a chance to thank you
I will always to love you
I will always worship at your feet
And I'll obey you, Lord
I was made for you



This was one of those slower hypnotic songs I was talking of, read the lyrics and these are the meme of most of the modern songs.


The sole purpose is to suck up and they sing about it as some triumphant song. The lyrics speak volumes of the mindset the church is able to instill in believers and it does have a rather pleasant melody.


This was usually coupled with this one;


I love you, Lord
And I lift my voice
To worship You
Oh, my soul rejoice!
Take joy my King
In what You hear
Let it be a sweet, sweet sound in Your ear

Repeat Chorus

We exalt you 3x
Oh oh Lord
[LEFT]
The last part, I would do chanting more than the lyrics while the rest continued the we exalt thee, this always led to singing in tongues and then the folk were well and truly hypnotized. I had to concentrate so I was never affected by the hype but observed the effect on the parishioners.

There was hardly a service that someone did not come up to me and thank me for the anointed P&W, I never accepted the accolades but that too was indicative of the effect of well orchestrated music has on people.
[/LEFT]

[LargeKingCat]

Must be a God-Sized EGO !!!

[catman]

It says a lot about how insecure and lacking in self-esteem many of the religious are.

[Driftwood2011]

Mooseketeer, I understand your being bemused as your whole post is a fallacy of "begging the question."

Your premise of God needing us is in error, as with your ad hominem claims against God, due to religion and people.

Religion is indeed man-made and has little to do with God, especially now.