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Modern Israel has existed as a state for less than 70 years - and there was related conflict for for about 50 years before that.
Ancient israel was a state roughly from 1100 BCE to 50 BCE (and between 586 BCE and 143 BCE it was NOT). So I do not know where you get thousands of years. And there is no evidence I know of that there was more conflict around ancient israel than around any other ancient state. Conflict has been part of human history just about everywhere for most of history.
ANd yeah, historians do estimate casualties of ancient conflicts.
And there are many Israelis who do not have "basic hatred" There are many who are eager for peace, and others who are skeptical of peace, but with sadness.
Jerusalem is within Israel, it's been a hot spot for thousands of years. Same basic principle.
They estimate casualties, but that doesn't mean those estimates are accurate. Either way, if I wanted to do the research and put the time into it I'm sure it's quite a bit more than what happened in Japan with 2 atomic bombs. Both situations are wrong, but I don't think the situations are even comparable to one another due to the vast amount of hatred between one and the other. We didn't drop atomic bombs on Japan because we hated them.
I know there are plenty of Israelis who do not have "basic hatred", but the fact that there isn't enough of them conflicted to get them to stop violating the agreements they made with the UN seems at a minimum upsetting. Plus the fact that they could elect some like Ariel Sharon to be their PM... that country has serious issues. And they are raised to dislike Palestinians.
I'm sure Israel is real nice well... except for the constant battling with Palestinians and the internal conflict between those who support what their country does and those who live with the scars of what they've done and had to see. I recommend Waltz with Bashir, it's a good movie.
Constant battling? My daughter has been there since September, she has never seen or experience ANY battling with anyone. Your impression from the headlines, movies, etc is not a good reflection of Israeli life. As for internal conflict, thats a political debate, much like we have here over our national policies. Its part of their vibrant democracy, it does not make life less "civil".
The Gaza war and the Lebanon war took a few weeks each, and involved the young men in the army - and most in the military (like in any modern army) are not front line soldiers. My heart goes out to our sons and brothers in combat units of the IDF, for what they have to see, what they have to suffer, and what unfortunately they have to do - my heart also goes out to our sons and brothers in the American military, who have also had to experience the horrors of fighting insurgencies unconstrained by the rules of war. However neither of those situations really speaks to day to day life in those societies.
Constant battling? My daughter has been there since September, she has never seen or experience ANY battling with anyone. Your impression from the headlines, movies, etc is not a good reflection of Israeli life. As for internal conflict, thats a political debate, much like we have here over our national policies. Its part of their vibrant democracy, it does not make life less "civil".
The Gaza war and the Lebanon war took a few weeks each, and involved the young men in the army - and most in the military (like in any modern army) are not front line soldiers. My heart goes out to our sons and brothers in combat units of the IDF, for what they have to see, what they have to suffer, and what unfortunately they have to do - my heart also goes out to our sons and brothers in the American military, who have also had to experience the horrors of fighting insurgencies unconstrained by the rules of war. However neither of those situations really speaks to day to day life in those societies.
Have you ever visited Israel?
No I haven't, and I'm not taking this solely from movies. I tend to side with Palestinians, the Israeli gov't has repeatedly violated agreements they made with the UN in order to even form their country and they have killed thousands of Palestinians to violate those agreements. We have done nothing about it.
I have a hard time empathizing with a country like that. I feel sorry for some of their citizens having to live with a government that has a blatant disregard for the commitments it makes and has no qualms with murdering to expand their borders.
That being said, what's going on there is the same thing that's been going on there for thousands of years due to the religious implications of the area. Have Switzerland take it over and just make it neutral. It's clear that no religiously run group can handle the responsibility of being the governing body of that region.
The people who were doing the looting, the shooting ,the rioting in New Orleans are the ones who need the Lord in their life. A lot of people have walked away from Christianity in this country and that is why we see the moral decay,the selfishness and it is mostly about me and to heck with everyone else.
America is still the majority as far as being a Christian nation but how many are true Christians as stated narrow is the gate for the believers who will attain Heaven wide is the gate who will perish. We have to wake up as a country and realize that God is the only way and other countries likewise need to do the same, works alone are not enough to attain Heaven
I know there are plenty of Israelis who do not have "basic hatred", but the fact that there isn't enough of them conflicted to get them to stop violating the agreements they made with the UN seems at a minimum upsetting. Plus the fact that they could elect some like Ariel Sharon to be their PM... that country has serious issues. And they are raised to dislike Palestinians.
It takes two sides to get the conflict stopped - in 2001 prime minister ehud Barak, supported by a slim majority, made an offer of peace deal to arafat. whether or not you think arafat was justified in rejecting that offer, its fairly clear from that half of Israel wanted the conflict ended, and was willing to make huge concessions to get it ended. There are many more israelis who want the conflict ended, but are not willing to make such concessions. They want peace, but on their terms.
What agreements did Israel make with the UN that you are referring to?
Ariel Sharon in his time as Prime Minister was a pragmatist - he was the first PM of his party to accept that ISrael would need to withdraw from the territories - he negotiated with the palestinians - and he DID withdraw from Gaza, uprooting settlements in the process. Had he not had his coma, the region would, IMO, be a far better place now.
And, no they are not raised to dislike palestinians. The experience of a conflict in which they are targets tends to lead to dislike.
No I haven't, and I'm not taking this solely from movies. I tend to side with Palestinians, the Israeli gov't has repeatedly violated agreements they made with the UN in order to even form their country and they have killed thousands of Palestinians to violate those agreements. We have done nothing about it.
I have a hard time empathizing with a country like that. I feel sorry for some of their citizens having to live with a government that has a blatant disregard for the commitments it makes and has no qualms with murdering to expand their borders.
That being said, what's going on there is the same thing that's been going on there for thousands of years due to the religious implications of the area. Have Switzerland take it over and just make it neutral. It's clear that no religiously run group can handle the responsibility of being the governing body of that region.
what agreement are you referring to - please name it.
tell me where and when they have killed thousands of palestinians. Be specific please.
Israel keeps its treaties, and does not murder. It has only expanded from its 1949 armistice lines once, in 1967, as a result of a defensive war.
There has been no more conflict there than anywhere else prior to modern times, and the modern warfare is NOT primarily religious, its a struggle about land and security between two peoples.
The govt of Israel is usually dominated by secular politicians, - it is NOT a religiously run group. ditto the palestinian authority (though NOT Hamas)
Switzerland, BTW, had religious civil wars in the 16th century, and political civil wars in the 18th and 19th.
you would do well to read a good book on the conflict. Its not a question of being pro-israel or Pro-palestinian - there are books taking BOTH sides that would give you many more facts than you have.
Last edited by brooklynborndad; 03-16-2011 at 02:33 PM..
The people who were doing the looting, the shooting ,the rioting in New Orleans are the ones who need the Lord in their life. A lot of people have walked away from Christianity in this country and that is why we see the moral decay,the selfishness and it is mostly about me and to heck with everyone else.
America is still the majority as far as being a Christian nation but how many are true Christians as stated narrow is the gate for the believers who will attain Heaven wide is the gate who will perish. We have to wake up as a country and realize that God is the only way and other countries likewise need to do the same, works alone are not enough to attain Heaven
That's a joke right? Japan has never been with your lord, yet they are a heck of a lot more civilized than we will ever be. In fact many countries where Christianity is a minority is more civilized than we are, they treat each other better.
Sweden, Norway,Japan Denmark Finland,France. Been to two of those Countries, Norway where I have family and Sweden, the differences in the people and countries to us is astounding.
That's a joke right? Japan has never been with your lord, yet they are a heck of a lot more civilized than we will ever be. In fact many countries where Christianity is a minority is more civilized than we are, they treat each other better.
Sweden, Norway,Japan Denmark Finland,France. Been to two of those Countries, Norway where I have family and Sweden, the differences in the people and countries to us is astounding.
among those 6, which one doesnt belong? All 5 other than japan have traditions of social democracy, that, IMO, are rooted in judaeo-christian values.
That's a joke right? Japan has never been with your lord, yet they are a heck of a lot more civilized than we will ever be. In fact many countries where Christianity is a minority is more civilized than we are, they treat each other better.
Sweden, Norway,Japan Denmark Finland,France. Been to two of those Countries, Norway where I have family and Sweden, the differences in the people and countries to us is astounding.
They may be more civilized but are they saved is the question.
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