U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-01-2011, 09:31 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,356 posts, read 3,339,952 times
Reputation: 1688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
Where is the contradiction there? If such a being put those laws into place, I don't see why it's existence would negate any of them. If this being exists outside of the physical realm of the Universe, is it not akin somewhat to an ant farm? I can subject my ants to flood or famine, feast and prosperity. It does not mean that I am subject to the same. What we are talking about here is the ability to accept the possibility of a different realm of existence than what we experience. Some atheists claim that we are only one of a possible multitude of Universes, thus cancelling out the odds against our existence at all. How can we fathom what the possible conditions are in those Universes? Is it so hard to imagine that our own laws of physics do not apply?
I'm not claiming a contradiction.

If what you mean is that it is a metaphysical possibility that an omnipotent being exist, I would agree that at a matter of pure logic we can discount very few things in this world. In fact, this could all just be a dream.

But getting back to where we started, in the normal meaning of the word "possible", I don't think any of those things are possible. Is it possible that I ran a 2 miles in 30 seconds? In a metaphysical sense, it is possible. But you should feel pretty comfortable in claiming that it's not possible for me to run a 2 miles in 30 seconds using the word "possible" in the everyday sense.

Likewise, is it possible that an Omnipotent being moves from different realms of existence? Metaphysically it is possible. But in the same way you would say it is impossible for me to run 2 miles in 30 seconds, you should say it is impossible for an omnipotent being to have created our universe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-01-2011, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,255 posts, read 1,786,563 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I understand the desire to have meaning to it all.

Be that as it may, it seems to me that a Leprechaun would be more likely then an omnipotent being, simply because we would only have to be wrong on a few of the immutable laws of nature for a leprechaun to exist, but many many more must be violatable for an omnipotent being to exist.

Logically, it wouldn't take an omnipotent being to create the universe. Imagine a being that is almost omnipotent, except perhaps in one or two aspects. Maybe he can't reverse time, or maybe he can't be in two place at the same time. Thus he would be able to create a universe without being omnipotent.

So that fact that the universe exists, even if one assumes a sapient creator, doesn't demand an omnipotent God.

One final point, it seems to me you are doing more than just keeping your options open. If you are willing to believe that it is possible for the known laws of physics can be suspended, then you really have to admit the possibility of just about any other supernatural being as well.

I suspect, in the normal course of the day, you would be willing to say that leprechauns are not real, because a being with their powers is not possible. Yet you have carved out a God exception.
I see your edit. Although I do not believe in the existence of Leprechauns and such, it is not because I believe them to be impossible. I have no logical experience to lead me to believe in their impossibility. It is because they are said to exist in this realm, and the fact that I have no experience of them, that leads me to believe that they don't exist. Is it possible that they do? Sure. Do I have reason to believe? No. On the other hand, I happen to live in a Universe that is of yet unexplained by any "conventional" means. I believe the existence of the supernatural to be possible. I believe the supernatural to be a possible explanation of my own existence. I keep that door open. My distinction lies mainly with what is within or without our current realm. I cannot speak for what may exist outside of our own Universe/experience, other than it is possible. Same goes for other possible worlds, or an infinite amount of Universes, whether they have the same physical properties as ours our not. It's just that their existence still has no relevance to mine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2011, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,255 posts, read 1,786,563 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
It may not matter from your point of view, but from my point of view it matters a great deal.

I'm a naturalist, (not the nudist kind, but the kind that is roughly equal to being a materialist.) My atheism is a bi-product of my disbelief in supernatural claims.

You believe in God, but you are willing to believe in just about anything is possible- lock-ness monsters, leprechauns, etc. So that is a basic difference we may just have to accept.
I will not put any kind of limit on the logical term possible. You may choose to. Do I believe in the Loch-Ness, or Leprechauns, or Santa? Without a doubt, no. Folks continually try to equate these things, but without the understanding of different realms of existence, and relevance to individual existence. Do I believe in elves? No. Is that even relevant to my belief in a possible dietly? No.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2011, 09:54 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,356 posts, read 3,339,952 times
Reputation: 1688
Like all animals, we humans have a strong survival instinct that searches for a way to believe that we will live for ever. The thought of being finite is at first very unpleasant and unsettling. This makes it very hard to be unbiased about the subject.

I don't know you, but I do know a lot of people that feel like you do. These are smart people, who happen to be willing to believe in the supernatural when the question is about their own mortality.

I feel that for many of them, the reason they are willing to believe that there are alternate realms of reality where omnipotent beings are possible is because they hope to be spared from the dreary reality of knowing that death is final.

That ever present bias towards the survival instinct will make many people always find a way, regardless of how implausible, to believe that life could go on forever. (It took me years to get over that.)

But that may not be the case for you, I'm not sure.

Going to bed now, good night and thanks for the conversation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2011, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,618 posts, read 17,799,049 times
Reputation: 9829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
You have no compassion for God.The God I know talks to me. He performs miracles for me. He is my friend, and he helps me in very incredible ways. He is an omnisient being who comes out of compassion itself. He loves me like a father and a brother. He loves me like a priest would love a child screaming for help.
Yes, some priests love children alright, but not in a good way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2011, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,555,147 times
Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
He loves me like a priest would love a child screaming for help.
Many children did scream for help.... but the Church stifled up their screams.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,089 posts, read 8,233,422 times
Reputation: 3835
If I were a christian....


I may well throw myself in front of a train for insulting my own intelligence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2011, 07:55 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,089 posts, read 8,233,422 times
Reputation: 3835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I'm not claiming a contradiction.

If what you mean is that it is a metaphysical possibility that an omnipotent being exist, I would agree that at a matter of pure logic we can discount very few things in this world. In fact, this could all just be a dream.

But getting back to where we started, in the normal meaning of the word "possible", I don't think any of those things are possible. Is it possible that I ran a 2 miles in 30 seconds? In a metaphysical sense, it is possible. But you should feel pretty comfortable in claiming that it's not possible for me to run a 2 miles in 30 seconds using the word "possible" in the everyday sense.

Likewise, is it possible that an Omnipotent being moves from different realms of existence? Metaphysically it is possible. But in the same way you would say it is impossible for me to run 2 miles in 30 seconds, you should say it is impossible for an omnipotent being to have created our universe.
all sorts of things may well be probable, and not possible. And vice versa. While it is possible for human beings to fly to the moon, it is improbable that I would be one of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 935,149 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Hatred is too often a family value, but if you pay attention, it far too often goes hand and hand with bible beating family values. The more fundy the practiced religion in a home the more likely that the kiddies turn out to be racists.
I don't know where you live, but I have never met a family that is very religious that is racist. I have met racists, most claim not to be religious. My cousins are what I consider hardcore Christians. They don't preach to people outside their church. They keep their beliefs for the most part in their home and church. Sure, they do things with the church around town and even go on missions to other countries and build wells and stuff like that. They are far from being racists.

Maybe in the bible belt, but the bible belt is a country of its own. I guess when it comes to religion, your geographical location matters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2011, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 935,149 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
I wish I could, but they are the greatest threat to the future of humanity that exists today. You all read from the same book, talk to the same deity, I guess you know how the majority of peaceful muslims feel as christians express their ignorance based and irrational hatred toward them.
Christians are not the greatest threat to the future of humanity. Now you are sounding like a Atheist Fundumbmentalist(no spelling error). Atheist extremism is just as bad as Religious extremism. It is about balance. The problem with most non-Christian people is that we are unorganized, we fight against the Christian extremists, but at the same time fight each other. Wait, isn't there infighting in the Christian faith? Weird, it is almost like it is simply a human trait rather than a religious one.

Would you deny that you are racist against Christians and other theists?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top