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Not saying my last post has anything to do with my stance on abortion, just pointing out that if the official recognition of something as dead is what draws the line between a life and a non-life for us, we need to rethink our position.
On the contrary, I think the fetal age where people hold "funerals" aligns with current abortion laws quite nicely.......no rethinking necessary.
So, what do you think should be done to women who smoke, drink, eat a bad diet, or are overweight to the detriment of a fetus?
Yes, being overweight can harm a fetus.
Should they be jailed? Should the child be taken away and put up for adoption?
Are we going to put a woman on trial if she miscarries or has a child born with deficiencies?
"You took a ride on your bike and fell down? You fetus killer! Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, we have witnesses that will testify that you ate too much junk food during your pregnancy! No wonder your child was born with "fill in the blank". Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, you suffered a miscarriage in a car accident while taking an unnecessary trip in your car.....you should have known better than to ride in a car unless it was absolutely necessary.....you subjected your fetus to unnecessary risk. Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, is it true that you painted your home and had been breathing paint fumes before your miscarriage? Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, didn't you know you were too fat to get pregnant?....that your excess weight would be bad for the fetus? Off to jail with you!"
Ma'am, you knew you had a stressful job before you became pregnant. Maternal stress is bad for the fetus. You should have quit your job before you became pregnant. No wonder you miscarried. Off to jail with you!"
Ma'am, you knew you were a possible carrier of "X,Y,Z genetic syndrome.....and you chose to get pregnant and subject a poor, innocent fetus to a life of suffering? Off to jail with you!"
Really? This is the kind of world you want pregnant women to live in?
It's all about THE FETUS! ONE missstep by Mom and she will be put on trial!
If you miscarry or have a defective child.....you better be able to prove in a court of law that it wasn't because of something you did or didn't do.
Who in the hell would want to take the chance of carrying a pregnancy in a world like that?
Instead of having abortions.....women will be clamoring to get sterilized.
I am perplexed by your post Annie.
As an example: Not that long ago there was no such thing as "calling Child Protective Services" to report abuse, harm, and even potential harm.
I wonder how many millions of calls they've gotten so far this year?
Laws change as different classes/groups of people are given rights they didn't previously possess. The government then forms agencies to assure those rights.
But how is this some kind of revelation...or, why by your post do you seem to feel that it would be so peculiar that would happen?
People of certain races/nationalities/sexual orientation, people with disabilities, women, children, even animals, all now have rights they didn't before...and there are specific government agencies to enforce those rights and punish violators.
Unborn humans are the next group...and sooner than later....just watch.
On the contrary, I think the fetal age where people hold "funerals" aligns with current abortion laws quite nicely.......no rethinking necessary.
Once more, that is not the argument I was addressing (when it should be legal/illegal to have an abortion). I was addressing the claim that people having funerals for a being is what establishes that it's a human life. But you're right. Whoever believes that hasn't thought in the first place, so "rethinking" in their case would only be thinking for the first time
Clearly you have your opinion and I have mine. My own opinion is that this is not just baseless but unfair and even insulting to those who have had abortions and demeaning them in a way that is as disingenuous as it is innacurate.
No, not only religious people are opposed to abortion. Many atheists are too. At least one of the "big Four" of the so called "New Atheists" was against it for example. One can speculate as to whether that 25% holds for the greater community. I imagine also that atheists are in no way immune to propoganda tricks levelled against people who have abortions or their characters and as such are just as likely to be converted by such tricks into being anti abortion.
One good question to anyone who wants to know if only the religious are opposed to abortion would be to ask them why they would expect it to be so.
I have to ask a question: why is it important what anyone thinks about someone else's decision to have an abortion?
You keep saying it is baseless, unfair and insulting to assert that someone stating that a loving heart keeps them from having an abortion is asserting that only cruel people DO have abortions. . . but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Who the hell cares what is in the heart of someone else?
And why should a person have to defend how they feel about abortion?
Here's the bottom line: abortion is the law of the land.
I don't care what your reasons are for having an abortion.
I am not responsible for your feelings. You are responsible for your feelings.
I am responsible for my own immortal soul; i am not responsible for yours.
If I happen to believe I am going to be condemned to hell for getting an abortion, that is between me and my God.
If you happen to believe there is no God, so you dont' have to answer to Him about your actions, then that is your business.
If you happen to believe a fetus is not life, then good for you. Whatever. I don't care. I only care about the consequences of my OWN behavior.
WHy would you care what I think about your behavior? Further, unless you want to broadcast it on the news, how the hell would anyone ever know if someone else got an abortion?
You are trying to prove some point about society drawing a picture of all people who get abortions as being cruel b/c loving people don't have abortions.
That is simply a spurious assertion.
First of all, "all people who get abortions" are not some monolithic group any more than "all people who do not get abortions."
Society portrays women who choose to abort in many ways. Some people see it as cool. Some people see it as modern. Some people see it as agonizing. Some people see it as immoral. Some people see it as routine.
How society defines and views life is arguably of utmost importance.
NO NO NO. Don't try and take what I said off the tracks.
I didn't say a thing about how society views LIFE.
THe discussion came about from a poster trying to assert that people automatically assume that anyone who has an abortion is cruel and anyone who doesn't is loving.
We are not talking about society's definition of life.
I have to ask a question: why is it important what anyone thinks about someone else's decision to have an abortion?
How society defines and views life is arguably of utmost importance.
NO NO NO. Don't try and take what I said off the tracks.
Calm down. The way we play this game is as follows: you get to ask questions; I get to answer them. If you do not understand or believe that "someone else's decision to have an abortion" reflects, in part or in whole, society's appreciation of life, that is entirely your shortcoming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
We are not talking about society's definition of life.
Sorry, but you don't get to define what we are talking about.
I have to ask a question: why is it important what anyone thinks about someone else's decision to have an abortion?
You keep saying it is baseless, unfair and insulting to assert that someone stating that a loving heart keeps them from having an abortion is asserting that only cruel people DO have abortions. . . but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Who the hell cares what is in the heart of someone else?
And why should a person have to defend how they feel about abortion?
Here's the bottom line: abortion is the law of the land.
I don't care what your reasons are for having an abortion.
I am not responsible for your feelings. You are responsible for your feelings.
I am responsible for my own immortal soul; i am not responsible for yours.
If I happen to believe I am going to be condemned to hell for getting an abortion, that is between me and my God.
If you happen to believe there is no God, so you don't' have to answer to Him about your actions, then that is your business.
If you happen to believe a fetus is not life, then good for you. Whatever. I don't care. I only care about the consequences of my OWN behavior.
WHy would you care what I think about your behavior? Further, unless you want to broadcast it on the news, how the hell would anyone ever know if someone else got an abortion?
You are trying to prove some point about society drawing a picture of all people who get abortions as being cruel b/c loving people don't have abortions.
That is simply a spurious assertion.
First of all, "all people who get abortions" are not some monolithic group any more than "all people who do not get abortions."
Society portrays women who choose to abort in many ways. Some people see it as cool. Some people see it as modern. Some people see it as agonizing. Some people see it as immoral. Some people see it as routine.
Who the hell cares? It is the law.
I also see this argument a lot: "It's legal, so".
Yes, relative to current law, in the United States...it's legal.
Majority Rules in the US legal system...so, that 7-2 vote in favor of Norma McCorvey (aka Jane Roe) by the S. Court in 1973 is the Rule of Law. Thus...since then...in the U.S...abortion is legal.
OTOH...I don't necessarily consider a less than 40 year old legal ruling by 7 people, in one particular jurisdiction, to be the "end all and be all" of what "the law" is. I don't see a few people agreeing to something creating the objective and definitive determination of what is "true and just".
Some other points to ponder relative to the issue:
Why just go by US law? Why not go by the law of, say, Ireland or Chile?
Why not go by what the law was BEFORE Jan 22, 1973? What makes current law a "greater truth and justice" than the law that was in place for much longer? Does it REALLY have "greater virtue" simply by it being current? Based on that: It's murder one day...but not murder the next...because 7 people said so. Is that "right" or "just"?
What is the "true and objective" basis of "the law" that governs the conduct of man? The laws of some country? The laws of some theology? What I think it should be? What you think it should be? Can any person or group actually determine what should be the law for everybody?
Laws vary, and laws change...what is legal in one place is illegal in another, or what was once illegal becomes legal, or visa-versa. So how can variable and/or changing laws EVER be used to determine "what is right" and "what is wrong", or what is "truth"?
In some places people can be legally killed by others because of perceived disrespect in "honor killings". It's legal there. So should a "who the hell cares" attitude be taken about it? After all...it's legal in those places.
Was slavery "right" in any place throughout history where "The Law" or "The Government" said it was ok?
At one time, in the U.S., Blacks and Native Americans were determined BY LAW to be "nonpersons"...and could thus be sold as property, killed, enslaved, anything you wanted to do to them. So did that make them "nonpersons", just because this government said so?
I submit: The law really is not "the bottom line".
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