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The atheists have faith canard is a common one (especially among trolls) and is based upon nothing more than ignoring that it is not a position in and of itself, but one of the results of the application of a very reasonable outlook on life.
That outlook is simply this: The world is full of people making claims. All kinds of claims. Claims about magic, gods, alternative medicine, aliens, faith healing, ghosts, astral planes, a still living Elvis, 23ism and much much more. If you started typing all the claims people make you likely would not finish in your life time, nor would your children or their children if they were to take up the mantel after you.
It is impossible to go around believing all these claims, or checking them, and it is certainly impossible to maintain faith in the negatives of them all. The average brain could not hold it.
So simply the only manageable way to operate is to dismiss entirely any claims that are ENTIRELY unsubstantiated. This is… most of them. If someone makes a claim, and they have literally not got the first scrap of evidence… argument… data… or reasons to lend it even a modicum of credence… dismiss it. Entirely.
Now GIVEN no one, in 18 years of me asking, has offered me even an iota of evidence, argument, data or reasons to think there is a non-human creative intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe… I therefore dismiss the claim AND resist it’s application and use in our halls of power and education.
I do not call myself an atheist therefore. Other people call me it. I am merely a person who entirely dismisses unsubstantiated claims. Atheist is what people who have failed to do that call me in order to label me as “not one of them”.
Saying atheism requires faith is, as I said, a canard. It is the approach of those who do not understand fully the phrase “You can not prove a negative” and do not understand where the onus of proof lies when claims are being made.
You want to make a claim, YOU provide the backup for that claim. Simple as. So if you want to say there is a god, the onus of proof lies with you, not those who simply are not moved to accept your claims for no reason.
You want to make a claim, YOU provide the backup for that claim. Simple as. So if you want to say there is a god, the onus of proof lies with you, not those who simply are not moved to accept your claims for no reason.
No, you are right. The power of belief is an essential human characteristic. Atheists believe too, the only difference is what they choose to believe (or not).
On spiritual matters, the difference between an atheist and a believer is that an atheist takes matters of belief into his/her own hands, rather than relying upon and/or building on the beliefs of others.
When you explore the wider world beyond religion, it is hard NOT to come to the conclusion there is no god, afterlife, grand reason to exist, ect. All our current evidence points to the depressing truth that we are merely hairless bipedal apes with big heads who became what we are by chance, in a universe governed by chance.
Perhaps a greater perspective would change that notion... but despite claims to the contrary, humanity simply does NOT have access to a greater perspective. I believe this to be true and proclaim it's truthfulness, though I will continue to try to stay open to any new developments.
Good post. It is nice to have at least one person who wishes to engage in a discussion rather than simply attack.
I do disagree with two of your points.
In my experience most Christians are motivated by personal experience, not the experience or beliefs of others. Secondly, the natural world and universe supplies much evidence to support the notion of a God. it is really a question of how one interprets said evidence.
I contend that Atheists operate on a type of faith. If you believe something to be so without proof or evidence then one is operating in faith.
Or maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is evidence that supports the Atheist POV. I just see such strong convictions among many atheists, makes me wonder. Perhaps they know something I don't.
This thread is meant to challenge and to enlighten. And to make some folk realize that it is not just the religious who believe something in faith.
In my experience most Christians are motivated by personal experience, not the experience or beliefs of others.
Fair enough, although I (obviously) question how much of that emotion is created within the person through personal (probably mostly subconscious) desire and cultural conditioning.
In another post I talked about how I had a lucid dream experience where I was arguing with a dream version of my wife about whether or not I was dreaming. I remember thinking how weird it was that I was essentially arguing with myself but my dream wife (and yes, she is even when I'm awake. Love ya honey! ) seemed like a totally different mind completely apart and out of my conscious control. The dream argument didn't end until I said: "you are part of the dream anyway, why am I arguing with you?"
There is a duality (or even multiplicity) of mind at work and it would be very easy to see that other half of ourselves as a totally different entity. There may be a god, and I've had spiritual experiences that left me bawling... but to me, those religious experiences can just as easily be my "other half" talking to me which I misidentified as god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Secondly, the natural world and universe supplies much evidence to support the notion of a God. it is really a question of how one interprets said evidence.
We both know that is the ultimate circular argument that is totally unresolvable. My gut says there isn't a god, your gut says there is. Since this basically boils down to a gastronomic argument, maybe we should settle the matter once and for all in a no-holds barred eating contest at the MGM Grand buffet. Aftewards, we'll catch a show.
In my experience most Christians are motivated by personal experience, not the experience or beliefs of others.
Nonsense.Most Christians are motivated by what they are taught as kids,not some kind of personal experience.That is why most Christians stay Christian,Buddhists stay Buddhist,Moslems Moslem,Hindus Hindu.Very little critical reflection on whether what you have been taught is supportable by facts is ever done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Secondly, the natural world and universe supplies much evidence to support the notion of a God. it is really a question of how one interprets said evidence.
The natural world supplies nothing that cannot be explained scientifically.But you're right,it is a question of how that evidence is interpreted.Some interpret events as being caused by a god who needs to be appeased and want to chunk virgins down volcanoes.Others research and learn that volcanoes erupt from seismic causes and not gods.Therein lies your difference.
I contend that Atheists operate on a type of faith. If you believe something to be so without proof or evidence then one is operating in faith.
Or maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is evidence that supports the Atheist POV. I just see such strong convictions among many atheists, makes me wonder. Perhaps they know something I don't.
This thread is meant to challenge and to enlighten. And to make some folk realize that it is not just the religious who believe something in faith.
i have faith that organized western religions teach incorrect facts, just like Greek and Roman mytholoigies do. I have faith that it's a very old, and factually wrong attempt at people trying to understand the world around them. So yes, in some context I do have faith.
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Your premise is fundamentally defective.
