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Old 04-18-2011, 03:05 PM
 
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Do you believe in them or not. Why and how do you know?

I want to get a sense of how people think about this so your thoughts are appreciated.

I would for this question define 'Objective' as outside of the human mind yet binding upon humans; 'Moral' as basically the right or 'good' action for a particular end; and 'Values' are those things, in this case the morals, that we adopt for how we act.

Cheers.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:36 PM
 
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I would like to know which individual moral or system of morals humans adhere to which bear the hallmark of a divine or supreme intelligence, and could not have come about through human reason...
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:19 PM
 
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Last edited by Asheville Native; 04-18-2011 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
I would like to know which individual moral or system of morals humans adhere to which bear the hallmark of a divine or supreme intelligence, and could not have come about through human reason...
So you believe morality is not objective? But why and how do you know? I want to know how you think about the issue and reason out your position.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:57 PM
 
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What is your position on the subject though - I am not sure how that answers my question other than you don't believe the Bible as a moral authority.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Rivendell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Do you believe in them or not. Why and how do you know?

I want to get a sense of how people think about this so your thoughts are appreciated.

I would for this question define 'Objective' as outside of the human mind yet binding upon humans; 'Moral' as basically the right or 'good' action for a particular end; and 'Values' are those things, in this case the morals, that we adopt for how we act.

Cheers.
If morals were objective they would not vary from region to region and culture to culture.

Female circumcision is a good thing in some cultures, and shockingly savage in others.

In some parts of our country two guys walking and holding hands wouldn't get a second look.
In other parts violence would ensue.

See what I mean?
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzly Friddle View Post
If morals were objective they would not vary from region to region and culture to culture.

Female circumcision is a good thing in some cultures, and shockingly savage in others.

In some parts of our country two guys walking and holding hands wouldn't get a second look.
In other parts violence would ensue.

See what I mean?
So then there is no difference between Hitler's actions and that of the Dalai Lama - or can you say that there is and if so why and how?
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:19 AM
 
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I have seen no reason to think there exists objective morals. I have seen many reasons to understand why people think there are. There simply does not appear to be any source external to us for them, nor has anyone here shown one. Where are they coming from if not us? Rocks? Air? The sea? People simply can not find a source, so they make some up out of nowhere, like gods.

Our morality appears to be entirely subjective. However that does not mean there are not very real constraints of the human condition on them which influence what most of us conclude on the subject. The fact most of us conclude similar things is what gives the illusion of objectivity but an illusion is all it is.

For example most of us, with few exceptions hate pain and pain is an almost universal fact of the human condition. When building a society together most of us therefore conclude that the infliction of pain should be considered “bad”.

Similarly another aspect of the human condition is a strong emotional attachment to, and desire to protect, our children. When constructing a society therefore most of us consider harming children “bad”.

Given the vast moral consensus on these issues, it is very understandable that the moral positions in question SEEM objective. For every seemingly objective extreme position however, there are 100s more that are not so black and white and divide our society 50:50. The people who want you to think an objective morality exists will always rush to the extreme positions… abuse, rape, murder…. They will usually do their best to keep the conversation away from the Vaaaaast number of topics where consensus is not so clear.

That they need to ignore the vast majority of moral questions in order to sell their idea of an objective morality however should ring alarm bells for you instantly however.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:31 AM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,402,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I have seen no reason to think there exists objective morals. I have seen many reasons to understand why people think there are. There simply does not appear to be any source external to us for them, nor has anyone here shown one. Where are they coming from if not us? Rocks? Air? The sea? People simply can not find a source, so they make some up out of nowhere, like gods.

Our morality appears to be entirely subjective. However that does not mean there are not very real constraints of the human condition on them which influence what most of us conclude on the subject. The fact most of us conclude similar things is what gives the illusion of objectivity but an illusion is all it is.

For example most of us, with few exceptions hate pain and pain is an almost universal fact of the human condition. When building a society together most of us therefore conclude that the infliction of pain should be considered “bad”.

Similarly another aspect of the human condition is a strong emotional attachment to, and desire to protect, our children. When constructing a society therefore most of us consider harming children “bad”.

Given the vast moral consensus on these issues, it is very understandable that the moral positions in question SEEM objective. For every seemingly objective extreme position however, there are 100s more that are not so black and white and divide our society 50:50. The people who want you to think an objective morality exists will always rush to the extreme positions… abuse, rape, murder…. They will usually do their best to keep the conversation away from the Vaaaaast number of topics where consensus is not so clear.

That they need to ignore the vast majority of moral questions in order to sell their idea of an objective morality however should ring alarm bells for you instantly however.
Very nice - I agree and it definately is on the right track. With this we can have both non-objective morals and the ability to condemn Hitler's actions in a certain humanitarian sense. I think there are many new insights pointing in this direction.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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A good explanation of morality...


YouTube - Absolutely... not
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