Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think this is the attraction with universalism doctrine. It is "comfortable." So it has appeal.
No, it just gives more glory to God. It is not comfortable to be told on a regular basis that you aren't really a Christian because you believe God is more caring and capable than His creation.
Almost all well- educated Biblical scholars today do not, but then, as I recall, you think that's just because they are too cowardly to be labeled "heretics."
Partly so, and partly because some can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
Remember--we are talking the original documents here. In the original languages. Who's more likely to have the proper translation--scholars thousands of years later, or those studying the originals? And living just after Jesus walked the earth?
Partly so, and partly because some can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
Remember--we are talking the original documents here. In the original languages. Who's more likely to have the proper translation--scholars thousands of years later, or those studying the originals? And living just after Jesus walked the earth?
Again, they have the originals today or am I missing something?
Now we're down to our last final option. Outside of space and time. This seems to be a pretty logical answer, right? After all, heaven exists outside of space and time and no one can prove otherwise. Here's the issue. The reason Christians hypothesize that God can exist outside of space and time is because he infinite. That means that EVERYTHING outside of space and time is God. If hell were to exist outside of space and time, it too would have to be infinite. The problem is that you cannot have two infinites. Why? Because what would separate these two if they were both infinite? That would mean that heaven and hell were the same place.
Actually, this fits very closely with the old Eastern Orthodox understanding that "Hell" isn't a place, per se, but rather the condition of the soul in the presence of God. Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife
Actually, this fits very closely with the old Eastern Orthodox understanding that "Hell" isn't a place, per se, but rather the condition of the soul in the presence of God. Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife
As an FYI, the word used to describe literal fire in the Greek is different than the one describing hell-fire. This word--pur, in the Greek--is the same word used to describe any fire connected with God, such as refiner's fire, our God is a consuming fire, ect. Again, a different word--phōs--was used to describe physical fire, or light.
Sorry if you consider this bumping. But I'm still kinda confused. Can you give me some scripture that proves your point? Here's some for me: Daniel 12:2
Basically it says that people who die will go to Sheol. Then when Christ resurects them (That is found in several places. If you want the verses just ask..) they will face either everlasting LIFE (Heaven) or put to shame and have everlasting contempt.
The common belief of godly rabbis during the intertestamental era that sheol was divided into two sections is reflected in the New Testament, which refers to the abode of the righteous as "Paradise" (Lk. 23:43) or "Abraham's bosom" (Lk. 16:22), and the abode of the unrighteous as "Hades" (Lk. 16:23). After Christ's resurrection, it appears that those who resided in Paradise were ushered into the presence of God in heaven where they await the future resurrection of their bodies. But those who are in Hades await a resurrection to a different destination-- hell.
The word that is used most frequently in the New Testament for hell is Gehenna. Gehenna is a reference to the Valley of Hinnom located on the south side of Jerusalem, which served as the city's "garbage dump" during Jesus' time. The fires that burned here never went out.
As did his contemporaries, Jesus referred to Gehenna as the place where "the fire is not quenched" and where "their worm does not die" (Mk. 9:48). Whether He implied a literal flame and a literal worm is not of great importance. Jesus also described hell as a place of "outer darkness" (Mt. 22:13). But it is clear that He meant us to understand that hell is a place of continual deterioration and suffering for those who inhabit it! Jesus also referred to those who were cast into hell as being "cast outside" (Mt. 8:12), or as Paul simply puts it "away from the presence of the Lord" (II Thess. 1:9). Hell is a place of exclusion and loss of every blessing that comes from God. Hell is described as a place of "contempt" by the prophet Daniel (Dan. 12:2)--where every person is despised by every other inhabitant. As one writer has put it: "Sinners in hell will have company but no sympathy"
Exodus 34:7 tells us that though the Lord is "compassionate and gracious, ... yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished."
In John 8, Jesus says that for those who "die in their sins" there is no possibility of joining Him in heaven (vv. 21,24). In contrasting the expectation of the believer of being reunited with loved ones in heaven, he says that unbelievers "have no (such) hope" (I Thess. 4:13). These statements are difficult to reconcile with the belief that the deceased are offered a second opportunity after death. Hebrews 9:27 says that "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."
You have objected that while sin is certainly worthy of punishment, a "finite" sin is hardly worthy of the "infinite" punishment of hell. Why our rebellion against God should be considered "finite" in nature I don't understand though..
When we consider that the One against whom we have rebelled is the One who gave us life, who is the source of every good thing that we know in life, and who has extended his love by giving his own Son as payment for our sin, how can we possibly measure the gravity of our sin or the punishment it deserves? When we consider too that there is no indication that those in hell will ever experience a "change of heart" in attitude toward God, perhaps we can see that God's judgment is entirely just.
Does this make my point clear? Ok.. umm.. your turn.. Thanks for reading..
~ <",>< Jason
As an FYI, the word used to describe literal fire in the Greek is different than the one describing hell-fire. This word--pur, in the Greek--is the same word used to describe any fire connected with God, such as refiner's fire, our God is a consuming fire, ect. Again, a different word--phōs--was used to describe physical fire, or light.
Interesting, no?
I'll say, quite honestly, that I agree much more strongly with the Orthodox view of the afterlife than anything in Western Christendom. At this point in time, the Western Christian view of Hell and Satan seem to be as much influenced by Dante and Milton as by the Bible.
In John 8, Jesus says that for those who "die in their sins" there is no possibility of joining Him in heaven (vv. 21,24). In contrasting the expectation of the believer of being reunited with loved ones in heaven, he says that unbelievers "have no (such) hope" (I Thess. 4:13). These statements are difficult to reconcile with the belief that the deceased are offered a second opportunity after death.
Yes, Jeff, I want to zero in on this one particular point Mudjosh has made-the thing that Thessalonians says about "that we shouldn't grieve as those who have no hope." As someone who has a deceased son, these verses are very precious and real to me. So I am extremely familiar with them. My question is this, if universalism is true, wouldn't others also have a "hope" of re-joining their loved ones. Even if they had to endure a period of punishment first, wouldn't they eventually be re-united with their loved ones and thus, have that "hope" which Paul clearly says they don't have...if universalism were true?
Sorry if you consider this bumping. But I'm still kinda confused. Can you give me some scripture that proves your point? Here's some for me: Daniel 12:2
Basically it says that people who die will go to Sheol. Then when Christ resurects them (That is found in several places. If you want the verses just ask..) they will face either everlasting LIFE (Heaven) or put to shame and have everlasting contempt.
There is something that happens frequently on this forum and it's about to happen again. It's called...Battle of the Bible Verses! What I notice is that we can both bust out verses all day long that seemingly contradict each other...what point are we trying to prove? I digress...
"Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world IN RIGHTEOUSNESS by the Man whom He has ordained. He has GIVEN ASSURANCE of this TO ALL by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31
This verse says that God will judge the world by Jesus, in righteousness, and have given assurance to all by Christ's ressurection.
"If ANY MAN'S work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If ANY MAN'S work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. 3:14,15
Saved by fire?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
The common belief of godly rabbis during the intertestamental era that sheol was divided into two sections is reflected in the New Testament, which refers to the abode of the righteous as "Paradise" (Lk. 23:43) or "Abraham's bosom" (Lk. 16:22), and the abode of the unrighteous as "Hades" (Lk. 16:23). After Christ's resurrection, it appears that those who resided in Paradise were ushered into the presence of God in heaven where they await the future resurrection of their bodies. But those who are in Hades await a resurrection to a different destination-- hell.
I have said all this before, but the apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does!
If Hell is real, why did Paul warn Timothy repeatedly to stay away from Jewish myths and fables, the likes of which were influencing many in the early church? Rather than affirming such doctrines, Paul declares them to be profane fables. (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:14)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
The word that is used most frequently in the New Testament for hell is Gehenna. Gehenna is a reference to the Valley of Hinnom located on the south side of Jerusalem, which served as the city's "garbage dump" during Jesus' time. The fires that burned here never went out.
As did his contemporaries, Jesus referred to Gehenna as the place where "the fire is not quenched" and where "their worm does not die" (Mk. 9:48). Whether He implied a literal flame and a literal worm is not of great importance. Jesus also described hell as a place of "outer darkness" (Mt. 22:13). But it is clear that He meant us to understand that hell is a place of continual deterioration and suffering for those who inhabit it! Jesus also referred to those who were cast into hell as being "cast outside" (Mt. 8:12), or as Paul simply puts it "away from the presence of the Lord" (II Thess. 1:9). Hell is a place of exclusion and loss of every blessing that comes from God. Hell is described as a place of "contempt" by the prophet Daniel (Dan. 12:2)--where every person is despised by every other inhabitant. As one writer has put it: "Sinners in hell will have company but no sympathy"
The Jews did not understand “Gehenna” as a symbol of everlasting torture, but rather as a place of shame, filth, and defilement (where Israel participated in the grossest form of idol worship). The teaching of Gehenna has evolved in Jewish teachings to include punishment in the afterlife; but even today, Gehenna still does not mean “endless” punishment to the Jews.
If Hell is real, since some English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word “Gehenna,” in the New Testament, why didn’t this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form “ga ben Hinnom” in the Old Testament?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
Exodus 34:7 tells us that though the Lord is "compassionate and gracious, ... yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished."
“For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though He brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men." (Lam 3:31-33)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
In John 8, Jesus says that for those who "die in their sins" there is no possibility of joining Him in heaven (vv. 21,24). In contrasting the expectation of the believer of being reunited with loved ones in heaven, he says that unbelievers "have no (such) hope" (I Thess. 4:13). These statements are difficult to reconcile with the belief that the deceased are offered a second opportunity after death. Hebrews 9:27 says that "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."
If Hell is a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? (Eph. 4:8,9; Psalm 68:18; 1 Peter 3:18-20)
If Hell lasts forever, why the Psalmist confidently speak again and again about being rescued from it (sheol)? (Psalms 16:10, 30:2-3, Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 116:3-8, 139:8).
If Hell is real, how can Solomon teach that the spirit of man will return to the God Who gave it? (Ecc 12:7).
If the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead? Why were they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
You have objected that while sin is certainly worthy of punishment, a "finite" sin is hardly worthy of the "infinite" punishment of hell. Why our rebellion against God should be considered "finite" in nature I don't understand though..
Because we are finite creatures with finite knowledge, born into circumstances that we did not create, over which we have limited control. We did not set the terms and conditions which damn our souls for being born into sin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudjosh
When we consider that the One against whom we have rebelled is the One who gave us life, who is the source of every good thing that we know in life, and who has extended his love by giving his own Son as payment for our sin, how can we possibly measure the gravity of our sin or the punishment it deserves? When we consider too that there is no indication that those in hell will ever experience a "change of heart" in attitude toward God, perhaps we can see that God's judgment is entirely just.
Does this make my point clear? Ok.. umm.. your turn.. Thanks for reading..
~ <",>< Jason
I've never said we don't deserve punishment. But infinate torment is overkill. It blasphemes the character of God IMO and it negates and discredits the message of the Bible, which is that Jesus IS the Saviour of the World. The traditional orthodox teaching of hell leaves too many questions with no good answer.
If the traditional teaching of Hell is real how can mercy triumph over judgment? (James 2:13)
When and how will “all nations” praise Him, come to Him, serve Him, be blessed in Him and bow to Him? (Psalm 45:17, Ps. 86:9, Isaiah 62:11, Daniel 7:14 Ps 66:1, Ps 72:11, Ps 102:15, Jer. 3:17, Ps 72:17, Isa. 2:2, Isa. 11:10, Isa. 52:10, Rev. 5:13 etc.)
How can the world be reconciled to God? (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 11;5, Romans 5:10).
Why would Paul the apostle say the goal of God’s creative plan was to ultimately be “all in all?” (1 Cor. 15:28)
How can it be true that "God, Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, shall gather together all things in Christ, in the fullness of the times?" (Ephesians 1:9-11)
How can Paul insist that “For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Romans 11:36)? All things would include hell!
To me this one raises quite a valid question, and with it I close...
When shall it come to pass that: “On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine- the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken” (Isaiah 26:6-8).
Last edited by jeffncandace; 08-10-2007 at 09:41 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It is not comfortable to be told on a regular basis that you aren't really a Christian because you believe God is more caring and capable than His creation.
