Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Okay, I'm trying to follow the threads, but I see people asking genuine questions and others answering from a book of myths and legends as if the stories were real.
No-one in their right mind could accept that the Old Testament were a true story, unless they wanted to promote a horror story with a psychopathic megalomaniac as the main character. Many misguidedly think the New Testament is true, but by now there is enough evidence to show that it is allegorical. So don't quote fiction to explain the facts of Jesus. He was the Dying–Resurrecting–Son–of–God like all the other mythical sons of God in the Mystery religion.
If you don't believe that then that is because you want to believe The Greatest Lie Ever Told, but no matter how hard you believe, that will never make it true.
You're talking about the same event, but not the same concept. "Misunderstood" would technically be a different concept, as a concept is a mental construct defining an understanding or meaning. You have a different concept of the death of Jesus than most Christians do.
Not really . . . as with most cases of ignorance and misunderstanding the overall concept of Saving us from our "sins" (ignorance and barbarity) because we are unable to achieve the perfect agape love in our consciousness to prevent eternal separation of our species from God (sinfulness) . . . is the same. He IS the Way our consciousnesses (Spirits) are connected to God. His example and revelation of the true nature of God is the Truth and leads to eternal Life with God. Just because the religions preferred to retain the ignorant understanding of the concept interpreted by our ancestors doesn't make the concept different . . . just ignorant.
Quote:
In any case, the idea of Jesus dying so that he can pay himself a price so that he can forgive us is pretty silly. I'm pretty sure you agree.
In any case, the idea of Jesus dying so that he can pay himself a price so that he can forgive us is pretty silly. I'm pretty sure you agree.>>> Don't know whose quote that was.
What is not being understood here or in many other discussions like this is the reasons why Jesus had to die.
Yes, for our sins, yes, for eternal life.....but why needed He do it?
From the beginning, God's creation became "lost" in the design of the human soul, by God's own hand.
We, however are faultless to that design.
What we are not faultless in is, in our own sins. We are accountable for them yet while we live in the flesh.
But not so with our spiritual standing with God.
Dead souls spiritually can not see a resurrection unless, God forgives all the trespasses when yet alive in the flesh.
The only way to forgive all of humanities sins is to sacrifice one soul, rather than all souls consisting of all humanity, to eternal death.
So, guess what? Jesus did pay the price for our souls as a gift of grace from God.
The only way to forgive all of humanities sins is to sacrifice one soul, rather than all souls consisting of all humanity, to eternal death.
So, guess what? Jesus did pay the price for our souls as a gift of grace from God.
Blessings, AJ
::Sigh:: What an evil God you believe in, AJ. God needed no payment for anything. Sacrifice was a savage and barbaric belief of primitive minds devoid of knowledge and understanding and full of fear of God. That the mindset has been retained, promoted and revered as a sign of faith for over 2000 years is an abomination of satanic proportions.::Sigh::
The scriptures unequivocally state that Jesus did indeed die to pay the price of our atonement. He died that man might live.
Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;.......
......9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man......
......17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people......
.....2:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.....
.....3:1 ¶ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:....
.....7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself..... .....9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?.....
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission
23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Last edited by june 7th; 05-25-2011 at 07:15 AM..
Reason: Please refrain from using 'red' in posts as it is reserved for mod cuts and other mod actions. Any other color is fine. Thank
The whole problem with the xian doctrine is that it assumes man to be inherently evil. Thus we have the concept of original sin to explain maybe why teenagers rebel against parents when in fact it is merely a natural causation for the offspring to leave the nest and make their own way in life and further procreate.
Had man stayed in the hunter gatherer mode, there would be pretty much no "evil" to speak of. Modern clustered society has formed new traits that bring out the worst in people some of the times. In times of yore, man would simply migrate away and form new tribes etc. and there would be a chieftain and a nominal few followers each with their allotted duties to the small tribe.
Nowadays, to survive in the modern tribe, the natural instinctual attributes of each individual no longer matters much. We have had to adapt to a society that demands performance outside the natural order of things.
It is in our nature to rebel against this unless you are of the lucky few at the top of the hierarchy. Convincing the masses that this rebellion is due to some ludicrous fall of man has the means of mind control and conformance to new societal norms outside of our nature. Our nature is thus deemed immoral or rebellious yet it has been around for eons. As a teen I was rebellious, my kids were rebellious as teens and so too were my parents as teens (based on their stories). This "sinful" nature needs a quick fix and thus jesus enters the fray and makes it all better in that the alleged messiah groups all of the masses into one big misery pot with an out in accepting that you are no better than worms. Of course this does not apply to the leaders like priests and politicians.
At the end of the day, it is merely the deluded trying to delude others by preaching their own desperateness of inadequacy they have embraced without thinking or asking why this natural aspect of our lives is constant. You see it in nature yet for the beasts, there is no reason to attribute it to anything but nature taking its course, only man is seen as unnatural and hence the need for answers to a question that needs no answer let alone needing asking in the first place.
You only need to look at the ten commandments to see that it is all about control.
In the case of alpha males in a pride of lions and other animals, this alpha male authority is always replaced with new blood and usually by the fittest. Rebellion is natural and not a sin. Humans live too long these days and we have managed to usurp the natural selection by modern medicine.
W/o religion, men would have evolved further than he has now.
The whole problem with the xian doctrine is that it assumes man to be inherently evil.>>>SeekerSA
OK, lets look at this "inherently evil" term.
Looking at the first set of parents as given in story by the bible, we see Eve being the one who first sees or lusts after the fruit of the tree.
I mean, after being warned not to touch the fruit of that tree, Eve rather than Adam is the first to rebel.
Why so?
Well, if we look to see at what Eve represents in the union of heaven and earth, we see Eve representing the earth while Adam the heavenly spirit.
Now, Eve was not "inherently evil" but being the representative of the earthen vessel, naturally desires those things which are earthly, or lustful for the body.
And Adam, well, He only part took with Eve because they were as one.
Ref:Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
You and I, whether we are male or female, are a union of God's spirit (Adam) and Eve's earth (Flesh) make of us as one living soul.
We have the potential to do evil as well, but we don't do it because?
The Adam in us?
So now, what has the evil in mankind done to the goodness of God? Well, the Eve in them hath desired the lustful things of earth, to where the desires of earthly things, control and lordship over, has become their god.
Simple formula. Good in action = Godly attributes, while evil actions = selfish desires.
The scriptures unequivocally state that Jesus did indeed die to pay the price of our atonement. He died that man might live.
Jesus died for our sins . . . but the word "for" in the phrase "died for our sins" should be interpreted as "because of." He died "because of" (for) our sins. There is no dispute. Jesus died and willingly endured the scourging and crucifixion of our barbarous ancestors to do so . . . because it was unavoidable without confirming their primitive beliefs about a smiting God. He did not want to confuse His message of a loving God . . . so He made it as unambiguous as possible. He did NOT pay God for anything . . . He made up for our deficiencies as a species (sinfulness) so we would not be eternally separated from God. His perfect consciousness (Holy Spirit identical with God's) did what we couldn't and makes eternal life possible for us ALL. He was reborn as Spirit (resurrected) within the collective human consciousness and is available to us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit) within our consciousnesses.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
