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look3467, you misunderstood my question. I'm asking why Jesus/God needs to be tortured and "die" for three days in order for him to forgive us. Why doesn't he just sigh and say "I forgive you"?
It's like you wanting to forgive your son for something he did against you, but before you can do that, you feel you must torture yourself to the point of a 3-day coma. Just forgive him! The masochism is not necessary.
Only by shedding innocent blood would our sin be redeemed to a Holy creator. Yahushua the messiah was the sinless lamb sacrifice. by no other name can we be redeemed. Before him, the sacrifice was of lamb because the lamb symbolized the messiah and is innocent life. Yahushua was the creator incarnate in the flesh. Conceived by the holy spirit to a virgin mother. Thus son of Adam due to the bloodline of Mary, and son of God as the only begotten son of the Father. All that put their faith and trust in him will be redeemed to the holy creator.
Not that Jesus needed to be tortured, but that unless God provides a sacrificial body, we are the sacrifice.
We are as like Isaac. God commanded Abraham to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, but instead God stayed Abraham's hand, and instead provide the ram.
Representative of us all/mankind is Isaac, and representative of God's provided sacrificial ram is Jesus.
Yes I get the analogy.. The issue is, who is this sacrifice being provided to? God, right? He's providing a sacrifice to himself, and it's considered "necessary", why?
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Now, having determined that, why would Jesus have to go through the punishment?
Please do go on..
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It is because of the spiritual death factor and sin.
In the creative works of God, the individuality of the human soul as a god like entity, came the separation. (Spiritual death)
Ok.. So you agree that it is God's rule, as he created it. That just further begs the question. Why does he create this rule of necessary sacrifice to himself before he can forgive?
I thought you were going to tell me why it's necessary but you left me hanging.
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You see, if we were still held to the original death sentence as it were prior to Jesus, then why worry about how sinful we were? After all, death would have ended all life, physical as well as the spiritual.
But Jesus took not only the death sentence away but also took the responsibility for the forgiveness of all our sins.
Ok wait, how does being forgiven no matter what you do as long as you hold a specific belief, in any way a solution to 'not worrying about how sinful we were'?
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Would you be angry if some one threw you in prison for no reason at all?
That's how I see the concept of sending someone to hell for not believing. I assume that's what your analogy is comparing too, is that right? To answer the question, of course I would feel angry.
And, I would not think it was a great favor if that same person who threw me in jail in the first place for just being human, decided to "forgive" me so he can "graciously" let me free, and then expect me to worship him for the "favor".
Sorry to cut out some of your post, I did read it all but I just wanted to highlight the parts I was responding to.
Only by shedding innocent blood would our sin be redeemed to a Holy creator. Yahushua the messiah was the sinless lamb sacrifice. by no other name can we be redeemed. Before him, the sacrifice was of lamb because the lamb symbolized the messiah and is innocent life. Yahushua was the creator incarnate in the flesh. Conceived by the holy spirit to a virgin mother. Thus son of Adam due to the bloodline of Mary, and son of God as the only begotten son of the Father. All that put their faith and trust in him will be redeemed to the holy creator.
Um... I asked why "Only by shedding innocent blood would our sin be redeemed to a Holy creator."
Fill in the blank: "God created the rule that he requires innocent blood before he's willing to forgive us because ______"
God always doubles things twice before He brings it to pass.
Ref:Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
1. The creation of man
2. The creation of a God man (Jesus)
3. The recreation of man to a spiritual body.
First day Mankind had no place to go after death of the body but to a holding place, a prison, termed hell where the lost souls of humanity waited for redemption.
Ref: Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Second day They are visited as indicated by the above verse as only God could as a dead departed spirit condemned as like all of us.
But on the Third Day: God said to Jesus: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Jesus said: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Neither will Jesus leave all those in hell either: Hos 6:2 After two dayswill he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
The third man is the resurrected man, you and I will be resurrected unto life because of God's Jesus.
Yes I get the analogy.. The issue is, who is this sacrifice being provided to? God, right? He's providing a sacrifice to himself, and it's considered "necessary", why?>>>LogicIsYourFriend
Yes! God's creativeness caused the eternal death of mankind.
Not that He didn't know or understand why.
He knew full well the resultant condition He had placed mankind in and also knew full well the remedy for it.
In other words, it was a sacrifice to God in the creation of like individuals like Himself, to make us in His image.
But to sacrifice us for that condition? Absolutely not! Instead, He provided the sacrifice so that we would be the beneficiary of it.
So the only one lost was the "Son of perdition".
Jesus was a "marked man" as like Cain who paid the price seven times over for the salvation of mankind.
The number seven here giving reference to Jesus' including all of God's creation as in the seven day creation story.
Which means that by Jesus dying, He died from the beginning as noted: Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
You see the doubling in the verse above and in the explanation below?
Jesus is: now and forever
Jesus was: Meaning including all souls from the beginning of humanity
Jesus is to come: As the new man in the spirit, Holy Spirit God comes to us in spirit.
So if you know Jesus in your heart, Jesus has come to you and you are a new man.
Um... I asked why "Only by shedding innocent blood would our sin be redeemed to a Holy creator."
Fill in the blank: "God created the rule that he requires innocent blood before he's willing to forgive us because ______"
Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Our creator is expressed in scripture as a bright light that can't be looked upon due to his holiness. We have the genetic defect sin due to the fall of man. The wages of sin are death, but our creator himself came down to earth to lay his life down to provide the provision for that sin. All we have to do is except it and put our faith in him. Then we can be reconciled to a holy creator.
Let me add that we can imagine God the Son Yahushua the messiah because it is history, and he was fully a man as he was fully God. We cannot even imagine what Abba the father is as the third heaven is where he is outside the dimension of time. The description is a sea of glass with light no one can look upon.
Think about how large our amazing our universe is. What is outside of the universe? Pretty amazing. We have no comprehension really. The closest we get is the scriptures.
Yes I get the analogy.. The issue is, who is this sacrifice being provided to? God, right? He's providing a sacrifice to himself, and it's considered "necessary", why?
Please do go on..
Ok.. So you agree that it is God's rule, as he created it. That just further begs the question. Why does he create this rule of necessary sacrifice to himself before he can forgive?
I thought you were going to tell me why it's necessary but you left me hanging.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
Um... I asked why "Only by shedding innocent blood would our sin be redeemed to a Holy creator."
Fill in the blank: "God created the rule that he requires innocent blood before he's willing to forgive us because ______"
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Yes! God's creativeness caused the eternal death of mankind.
Not that He didn't know or understand why.
He knew full well the resultant condition He had placed mankind in and also knew full well the remedy for it.
In other words, it was a sacrifice to God in the creation of like individuals like Himself, to make us in His image.
But to sacrifice us for that condition? Absolutely not! Instead, He provided the sacrifice so that we would be the beneficiary of it.
So the only one lost was the "Son of perdition".
Jesus was a "marked man" as like Cain who paid the price seven times over for the salvation of mankind.
The number seven here giving reference to Jesus' including all of God's creation as in the seven day creation story.
Which means that by Jesus dying, He died from the beginning as noted: Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
You see the doubling in the verse above and in the explanation below?
Jesus is: now and forever
Jesus was: Meaning including all souls from the beginning of humanity
Jesus is to come: As the new man in the spirit, Holy Spirit God comes to us in spirit.
So if you know Jesus in your heart, Jesus has come to you and you are a new man.
Blessings, AJ
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Originally Posted by lee9786
Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Our creator is expressed in scripture as a bright light that can't be looked upon due to his holiness. We have the genetic defect sin due to the fall of man. The wages of sin are death, but our creator himself came down to earth to lay his life down to provide the provision for that sin. All we have to do is except it and put our faith in him. Then we can be reconciled to a holy creator.
Had enough platitudes and non-answers, Logic? I admire your tenacity but you will never get them to think or even try to come up with an answer. One because there isn't one and two because they have no clue what it could ever be . . . but "God's ways . . ."
Had enough platitudes and non-answers, Logic? I admire your tenacity but you will never get them to think or even try to come up with an answer. One because there isn't one and two because they have no clue what it could ever be . . . but "God's ways . . .">>>MysticPhD
Yes! God's creativeness caused the eternal death of mankind.
Not that He didn't know or understand why.
He knew full well the resultant condition He had placed mankind in and also knew full well the remedy for it.
So are you saying this is a necessary thing because of something bigger than God? He didn't create the rule, he just follows it?
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Originally Posted by lee9786
Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Our creator is expressed in scripture as a bright light that can't be looked upon due to his holiness. We have the genetic defect sin due to the fall of man. The wages of sin are death, but our creator himself came down to earth to lay his life down to provide the provision for that sin. All we have to do is except it and put our faith in him. Then we can be reconciled to a holy creator.
You don't seriously think this answers the question, do you?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Had enough platitudes and non-answers, Logic?
Almost.
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I admire your tenacity but you will never get them to think or even try to come up with an answer. One because there isn't one and two because they have no clue what it could ever be . . . but "God's ways . . ."
Eh, it's still amusing, to an extent.
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