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Old 04-28-2011, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,789,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I have relatives who survived auschwitz. I am sure some of them felt that way toward the Germans. I do not feel in the position to judge them for their feelings. The speakers in that Psalm are Jews who suffered horribly in 586 BCE. Their feelings are human.

The bible is the story of the spiritual journey of HUMANS, like us, toward G-d. It is moving and important BECAUSE of that.
My grandmother lost half her family to the Nazi's and suffered in the camps herself, I know her pain. She lived with it every day of her life. but never once did she want to punish or kill any of the children of the people that put her through that, she knew they were not to blame and certainly would never condone it or command it.

The violence and horror and killing and degrading in that book are in no way to me a spiritual journey towards any god, and not one I would want to take if it was.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:54 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,642 posts, read 10,411,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
My grandmother lost half her family to the Nazi's and suffered in the camps herself, I know her pain. She lived with it every day of her life. but never once did she want to punish or kill any of the children of the people that put her through that, she knew they were not to blame and certainly would never condone it or command it.

The violence and horror and killing and degrading in that book are in no way to me a spiritual journey towards any god, and not one I would want to take if it was.

I did not say all reacted that way - some did others didnt. I do think its not possible to judge that emotional reaction without having gone through it personally.

I see many other things in that book than what you have listed. It seems you are focusing on what you are looking for. Violence and death are part of the human experience, as are sex and birth and love. The bible is filled with all those, as I would expect in the chronicle of a real people living in this world.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,789,640 times
Reputation: 2100
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I did not say all reacted that way - some did others didnt. I do think its not possible to judge that emotional reaction without having gone through it personally.

I see many other things in that book than what you have listed. It seems you are focusing on what you are looking for. Violence and death are part of the human experience, as are sex and birth and love. The bible is filled with all those, as I would expect in the chronicle of a real people living in this world.
I have read the bible twice cover to cover, I know what is in it, the bad FAAAAR outweigh any good.

Feelings is one thing, action and condoning are another. There are so many other atrocities that this god condones and commands in that book it is scary.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,642 posts, read 10,411,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I have read the bible twice cover to cover, I know what is in it, the bad FAAAAR outweigh any good.

Feelings is one thing, action and condoning are another. There are so many other atrocities that this god condones and commands in that book it is scary.

have you ever read the Jewish midrash - or read the torah with a jewish commentary like Amazon.com: Etz Hayim-FL: Torah and Commentary (9780827607125): David L. Lieber, Jules Harlow, United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, The Rabbinical Assembly: Books or Amazon.com: The Torah: A Modern Commentary, Revised Edition (9780807408834): W. Gunther Plaut, David E. S. Stein: Books ???

I mentioned feeling because the psalm quoted was precisely that.

The atrocities are basically about the canaanites and the amalekites. In both cases the midrash (if not the bible text itself) explains some sins that justified destruction. That children are not exempt is due to either A. That G-d as creator has a right to do to children what humans do not have the right to do or B. Because the culture of the time, like virtually ALL cultures before the 18th century did not make the distinctions about children that we do. The canaanite story is a story (or mythos if you like) of origin - a story to remind the Israelites that they owed their land to God and so were obliged to homage to him for it - its not a guide to real genocide (in fact historically the Jews were probably descendants of Canaanites). To me the proof of the pudding is in the eating - the bible of the Jews resulted in a religioius civilization that was averse to atrocity, and that managed to live for 1800 years without even sovereignty.

As for what the bible resulted in in CHRISTIAN hands, thats not my responsibility. The christians hijacked a work that was, in the traditional Jewish view, never meant for them.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,789,640 times
Reputation: 2100
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
have you ever read the Jewish midrash - or read the torah with a jewish commentary like Amazon.com: Etz Hayim-FL: Torah and Commentary (9780827607125): David L. Lieber, Jules Harlow, United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, The Rabbinical Assembly: Books or Amazon.com: The Torah: A Modern Commentary, Revised Edition (9780807408834): W. Gunther Plaut, David E. S. Stein: Books ???

I mentioned feeling because the psalm quoted was precisely that.

The atrocities are basically about the canaanites and the amalekites. In both cases the midrash (if not the bible text itself) explains some sins that justified destruction. That children are not exempt is due to either A. That G-d as creator has a right to do to children what humans do not have the right to do or B. Because the culture of the time, like virtually ALL cultures before the 18th century did not make the distinctions about children that we do. The canaanite story is a story (or mythos if you like) of origin - a story to remind the Israelites that they owed their land to God and so were obliged to homage to him for it - its not a guide to real genocide (in fact historically the Jews were probably descendants of Canaanites). To me the proof of the pudding is in the eating - the bible of the Jews resulted in a religioius civilization that was averse to atrocity, and that managed to live for 1800 years without even sovereignty.

As for what the bible resulted in in CHRISTIAN hands, thats not my responsibility. The christians hijacked a work that was, in the traditional Jewish view, never meant for them.
I will never agree that the atrocities in the bible are ok because god is doing want he wanted because he is god. The way I see, God is earned not self imposed, hell I could call myself Queen Nea, but it doesn't make me one. It doesn't make him right because he calls himself god. I dont think a real God, needs worship or demand love, or would punish all those that dont even know about him ( aka flood).

I will say this, I have never read the torah, but I have many Jewish friends, and they have never judged me, called me sinner or treated me as though I was less than them, which is something most Christians I have met or known do. They love and respect me and even invite me over to their homes during the holidays so I can experience it. Very warm.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,213,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
I'm infinitely capable of sitting in moral judgment of an imaginary entity from a 2000 year old book of desert myths. Morals, after all, come from human beings, and your god was invented by ignorant, superstitious savages who were nevertheless humans. Since we invented the idea of god, we are well-suited to judge its supposed actions.
Man invented morals? Boy, they sure did a good job of it, didn't they! Apparently, by human standards, it's ok to lie, cheat, still, murder or do whatever you like if you can invent a justification for it.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,213,629 times
Reputation: 7711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I will never agree that the atrocities in the bible are ok because god is doing want he wanted because he is god. The way I see, God is earned not self imposed, hell I could call myself Queen Nea, but it doesn't make me one. It doesn't make him right because he calls himself god. I dont think a real God, needs worship or demand love, or would punish all those that dont even know about him ( aka flood).

I will say this, I have never read the torah, but I have many Jewish friends, and they have never judged me, called me sinner or treated me as though I was less than them, which is something most Christians I have met or known do. They love and respect me and even invite me over to their homes during the holidays so I can experience it. Very warm.
Yes, can call yourself any deity you like, plenty of people have. But, until you can rain down fire from heaven, resurrect the dead, heal the lame, forgive sins or a hundred other things only God can do, you're not one.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,789,640 times
Reputation: 2100
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Yes, can call yourself any deity you like, plenty of people have. But, until you can rain down fire from heaven, resurrect the dead, heal the lame, forgive sins or a hundred other things only God can do, you're not one.
Haven't seen any of that. He must be on vacation for the last oh lets say 2000 years.

Oh and you forgot to add, commit genocide, order people killed, ok slavery and wipe out every living creature except 8, allow the mistreatment of women.

Yea sounds like a real nice God, or Devil in disguise.
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Old 04-29-2011, 10:14 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,283,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
So if you start with the assumption that god does not exist, you can judge him to be immoral. That seems pointless.
Being without a belief in any god is the default position for a human being. It is our normal, natural state of mind.

Everyone is born without a belief in any deity. Superstitious, religious beliefs are taught, they are not present in a child until another person plants those ideas. Depending on where a child is born, they are implanted with different ideas of what the One True Religion happens to be, who the True God happens to be, and what is sinful. I merely retained that default position despite the very eager and overbearing attempts by my parents to pervert that natural state of my mind.

However, I'm perfectly willing to consider any testable, repeatable scientific evidence you have for the existence of whatever flavor of god you happen to believe exists. I'm all ears. Whoever can show me solid proof that their god exists, I will cease in that instant to be an atheist and agree with you that your god isn't imaginary.

Please, present your evidence. There are millions of us eagerly waiting to see your proof.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,012 posts, read 9,794,696 times
Reputation: 2438
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Gee. I guess it doesn't take much to generate hatred, does it? Guilt by association!
You'll make baby Jesus cry dude!! I'm sure he doesn't like hypocrites. You can hardly talk about "guilt by association" when you write things like:

"If there is no God and no judgment day, what have we lost? A few more drunken parties? Adulterous affairs? Some "pleasures" of life we'd have probably been better off without?"

You have the gall to claim atheists slag off Christians whilst writing tripe like that??

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
But, consider this: Maybe we don't start threads to belittle atheist's or call into question their faith, because we don't hate you. We don't condemn you, don't feel compelled to belittle you to validate our own faith, don't see you as an enemy to be defeated. Maybe...just maybe...we love you ....
Or maybe just maybe y'all know that you couldn't compete (intellectually) with what you'd get back.

Last edited by Rafius; 04-29-2011 at 11:24 AM..
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