William Lane Craig says genocide and infanticide are just dandy (Jews, Satan)
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It was pointed out before, that morality is either good or bad because it is - in which case God is just giving his own version of moral law - or it is just what He says it is - which is just Diktat - not moral law.
I may not be understanding you fully here, but in case this is the old Euthyphro dilemma again, it was pointed out by Craig himself that this is really a false dilemma. It's not necessarily between a) something is good because god wills it, and b) god wills it because it's good. It could, for instance, be c) god is the good; the two are one and the same.
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I add to that the argument that Christians KNOW this is not morality, because they praise what God does that look moral and try to excuse or explain away what isn't.
Or, they try to explain what atheists and others have criticized?
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Like slavery. "Oh that isn't Real slavery".
It's certainly true that organizations like American Atheists have tried to equate biblical slavery with that of the American South, and have had to be corrected. The instructions given to slaveowners (in terms of what they should do) are numerous, and if followed result in the slave being treated somewhat better than modern-day employees!
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But why the need to whitewash it anyway? Just do what Lane -Craig does - say that it's justified for God to approve slavery because he is powerful.
Craig never argued that god is justified because he's powerful.
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Lane Craig is clever at dressing up his excuses (like the victims of the flood had it coming), but when they are unpacked they are seen as very bad arguments.
And that goes for "Kalam" too. And I claim to have invalidated his resurrection -claim, and I'm no genius. In fact, he's crafty, but he really isn't very good.
Care to share any of these refutations with us? Or should we just take your claims here... on faith? :P
You misunderstand, or perhaps are misrepresenting what I said here.
I never said God is beyond the notion of good and evil. He is good. But he is not subject to the rules that he defined for US.
Well I certainly do my level best not to misrepresent, so maybe a misunderstanding...
You said,
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Just as an "atheist" will tell you they are without belief, "amoral" would mean without moral --not moral, but not immoral. God is amoral. He is not subject to the rules that he defined for his creation.
Amoral is defined as being outside of the sphere of moral judgement, something that cannot be judged either good or bad or anywhere in between. So you clearly are claiming that God is beyond good and evil here. I think maybe the misunderstanding is not on my part, maybe you would care to rephrase this?
So if we move on to your new claim that God is not amoral after all, but it in fact good, we get a whole host of new problems.
If God is good, what is the moral standard, the yardstick that is held up to him to determine this? You clearly state that it is not the laws, principles, and instructions he gives to humanity, what other measure of morality are you using?
Or if you have no basis for morality outside of the laws God gives, and those cannot be applied to God, are you just assuming that God = good and good = god? If which case it is a meaningless tautology, and we are back to an amoral God.
Unless there is a definition for morality that is outside of, and greater than God, or unless the principles he created are truly objective and absolute moral precepts and can be applied to all moral actors including God, he cannot in any meaningful sense be said to be good.
And back to my point, if God cannot be evaluated in moral terms, then the basis for his authority comes not from moral goodness, holiness, righteousness, or anything like that. It boils down to what was expressed in the book of Job. God is bigger, smarter, and capable of cruelty and terror beyond mortal comprehension, and all you can do is obey or be crushed. That's a perfectly fine belief to hold, no less rational than most god beliefs, but you guys should be more honest about it and stop trying to sell a good god of love and peace if that's not what you mean...
Well I certainly do my level best not to misrepresent, so maybe a misunderstanding...
You said,
Amoral is defined as being outside of the sphere of moral judgement, something that cannot be judged either good or bad or anywhere in between. So you clearly are claiming that God is beyond good and evil here. I think maybe the misunderstanding is not on my part, maybe you would care to rephrase this?
He is not bound by the moral commands he's given to human beings, because the context is different. He commands us to have no Gods but him. But He is the only God, so that really wouldn't apply.
He commands us not to kill. As imperfect beings, we are unqualified to judge other human beings and are not any better morally. He is.
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So if we move on to your new claim that God is not amoral after all, but it in fact good, we get a whole host of new problems.
If God is good, what is the moral standard, the yardstick that is held up to him to determine this? You clearly state that it is not the laws, principles, and instructions he gives to humanity, what other measure of morality are you using?
Himself. That's it. He is the highest possible source of life, morality, anything in the universe. He is the ultimate standard and what he does or says is good by virtue of the fact that he is the one doing or saying it. Not because he's all powerful, but because he's all everything.
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Or if you have no basis for morality outside of the laws God gives, and those cannot be applied to God, are you just assuming that God = good and good = god? If which case it is a meaningless tautology, and we are back to an amoral God.
Unless there is a definition for morality that is outside of, and greater than God, or unless the principles he created are truly objective and absolute moral precepts and can be applied to all moral actors including God, he cannot in any meaningful sense be said to be good.
Sorry. Doesn't make sense. He created morality. He created the concept. He spoke this entire universe into existence, including the morality that you claim he should be subject to.
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And back to my point, if God cannot be evaluated in moral terms, then the basis for his authority comes not from moral goodness, holiness, righteousness, or anything like that. It boils down to what was expressed in the book of Job. God is bigger, smarter, and capable of cruelty and terror beyond mortal comprehension, and all you can do is obey or be crushed. That's a perfectly fine belief to hold, no less rational than most god beliefs, but you guys should be more honest about it and stop trying to sell a good god of love and peace if that's not what you mean...
-NoCapo
He is to be obeyed because he is God. No other reason is needed. If you don't like that, I'ms sorry. Take it up with him.
But I do know him to be good and loving and he has shown me that he is in how he has provided for me. I'm sorry if you can't see the same.
Maybe I should clarify here, I was not recommending that particular maxim, only pointing out that an omnipotent, omniscient, amoral (as opposed to omnibenevolent) God would have basically that as its only guiding principle. And, not coincidently I think, that maxim was stated by Alistair Crowley as one of the foundational principles for his occult religion, Thelema.
While I don't necessarily agree with Crowley, I think it ought to make a Christian stop and re-evaluate his doctrine, when you have essentially described God as adhering to the moral philosophy of the forerunner of modern Satanism.
Just saying...
-NoCapo
In truth, the God of wrath, vengeance, eternal torment or annihilation, and appeasement by blood sacrifice sounds more like a description of Satan than a description of God. If, as Jesus said and demonstrated, God IS agape love, then none of those descriptions can possibly be true. Every Christian should reject them as corruptions from our primitive and ignorant ancestors.
God is God. He gets to do what he wants when he wants, to whom he wants. He defines what is moral and what is not. Frankly, you don't have to like it. It's not even up for debate. He isn't subject to you.
Has it ever occurred to you that you may be worshipping a myth created by men? No different than the countless gods “you†don’t believe in.
When Islamist claim that suicide bombers get 72 virgins, do you hesitate to dismiss these claims as mythical nonsense? Does it not give you a bad taste in your mouth to read what you just wrote?
I became atheist because I could no longer justify such nonsense. I’m amazed at just how powerful religious indoctrination has been, and how primitive humans are still.
God is God. He gets to do what he wants when he wants, to whom he wants. He defines what is moral and what is not. Frankly, you don't have to like it. It's not even up for debate. He isn't subject to you.
So you admit your god is an immoral monster.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Except they were human beings.
God is God. Big difference. Go ahead. Stand up to God and see what it gets you.
If morality is objective (matter of fact, not opinion), and this omniscient being exists, then it follows that he would know what is right/wrong better than we do (infallibly, in fact). So I do think that his rules would be our moral obligation to follow in that case.
Which, objective morality, or his rules? If a god says what is moral, they are not objective.
Care to share any of these refutations with us? Or should we just take your claims here... on faith? :P
Apart from Kalam being a non sequitur based on an unproven premise?
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