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Maybe you're happy. I've wandered down the atheist road and I was miserable and depressed. That is one constant in my life: The farther I move away from God, the more miserable I get - not because I actually want to be miserable, it just always works out that way.
If Christians actually live their life based on the teachings in the NT: Go the extra mile. The good Samaritan and doing good for your enemies. Being honest. Being faithful to your spouse and give your all to your marriage. Do not do violence and do not provoke violence. Live with integrity and honor. That and all the rest. Forget about all the worship and afterlife, just live by the teachings.
That's you. Don't transfer your personal problems to others.
As for the rest....I gather you're one of those that think non-believers just can't be good people .
Go read the Bin Laden thread on the C board and see how non-violent those Good Christians appear to be.
I've wandered down the atheist road and I was miserable and depressed. That is one constant in my life: The farther I move away from God, the more miserable I get - not because I actually want to be miserable, it just always works out that way.
That is YOUR personal experience because it has been the COMPLETE opposite for me.
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If Christians actually live their life based on the teachings in the NT: Go the extra mile. The good Samaritan and doing good for your enemies. Being honest. Being faithful to your spouse and give your all to your marriage. Do not do violence and do not provoke violence. Live with integrity and honor. That and all the rest. Forget about all the worship and afterlife, just live by the teachings. If they actually do what Jesus taught, then they'll make the world a better place.
People could just as easily follow this simple premise and make the world a better place:
"Do not do to others what you would NOT want done to you" - Attributed to Confucius
That WITHOUT all the rituals, churches, temples, holy books and other extra stuff.
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Countless of Jesus' teachings are exactly opposite from humankind's natural reaction to things, but mankind would be better off for living by it. And in the end, actually doing all of those things are the truest form of worshiping God. He doesn't need to be told how great he is and hear us say "praise God" repeatedly till we're hoarse. What He really wants is everyone doing good to each other. What would the world look like if that really and truly happened? Would it be so terrible?
Not exactly, but is it necessary for people to "accept Jesus" to live a good, respectable life and have a passion to see a better world? I don't respect Jesus (if he existed) above any other man and still:
1. I am not addicted to any vices (some would call "sin") and NEVER have.
2. Love my family and is very loyal to them
3. Always smiling and always looking for a situation to help others
4. I'm patient, caring, kind and generous (if I have it)
5. I'm not mean-spirited nor do I wish anyone any harm even people who have screwed me over. I generally get over things, even serious things, in about ONE day.
6. I am rather respected by all those who know me in real life.
ALL of the above "without" Jesus or any gods.
That being said, I knowy SOME people need a Jesus/god for one reason or another. If they really buy into the idea they are miserable, hopeless, diseased bums, then it stands to reason they might find the need for some divine doctor to cure them. Others need that balance of a bribe of heaven and fear of retribution to prevent them from being the wicked person they are (until necessary) because I've known and met some Christians and I can tell you some stories.
Oh pleeeease GldnRain. You've already produced this Moderator cut: edit on two previous occasions and it's no better now then it was then. THEY ARE ALL EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS.....GET IT?
Come on now Raf...be nice.
Do I believe there was a person named Jesus who pissed off the Romans with his rabble rousing so they executed him? Yes I do.
Now, do I believe all that is written about this person in the bible? Absolutely NOT!
Jesus was more than likely a Gnostic who had some very Eastern ideas about enlightenment and how to truly see our Source/God. There is plenty of evidence for this in the NT...if one takes the time to actually study it. Was he this great godman individual who drew the masses to him wherever he went as the NT states...given the evidence or lack thereof, we can ascertain that this wasn't the case.
Jesus was a very enlightened and consciously aware individual and I believe there are some extremely important things he taught, that we need to pay attention to, in order to evolve consciously. He taught us how to be at ONE with our Source and each other...we just have to follow his lead and we can also achieve what he did...the pearls are there, we just have to mine for them.
That is YOUR personal experience because it has been the COMPLETE opposite for me.
That's fine I just hope you're not blasting me for sharing my own experience on the matter -- because you followed that up with you sharing YOUR experience. After all, I did qualify my statement saying that maybe Rafius is happy. Hey, maybe he's way happier now as an atheist than ever before. My experience was the exact opposite.
I hope we can at least agree that it's not wrong to share your own personal experience on this or any other matter.
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People could just as easily follow this simple premise and make the world a better place:
"Do not do to others what you would NOT want done to you" - Attributed to Confucius
True, but I think that when you actually love others no matter what, that is a lot more powerful. It leads to even better outcomes than following what Confucius says.
I do think that the wisdom of "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is one of those obvious bits of wisdom. If you could erase all memory of history, religion and philosophy from humankind, this is one of those things that is just destined to recreate itself every single time.
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That WITHOUT all the rituals, churches, temples, holy books and other extra stuff.
If it doesn't hurt the cause of human beings treating each other better, I don't see why any agenda against all the trappings of religion is necessary - even if there was no God and no afterlife, I don't think you're really gaining much.
Very often, religion is the scapegoat for bad things being done by bad people. It could be reasonably argued that having a morally conscientious population kept some of the bloodiest theocrats in history in check, limiting the body count and extremes of their rule.
Consider that atheistic ideology in the form of Marxism completely blew away even the bloodiest theocrat in human history. The body count, torture, unspeakable crimes, forced mass-migration and extremes of mistreatment of human beings: Marxism took it to levels nobody before them ever imagined.
Most atheists today absolutely refuse to be categorized with Marxists, and this is commendable. No sane person would want to be associated with them. But one of the pillars of Marxism every time it was implemented was large scale programs trying to erase all religion from existence. So saying they weren't atheists is like saying that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus -- it's just a complete load of crap. The crimes of Marxism stand as a warning of what can happen if atheism seeks to impose itself (and the rest of Marxist ideology) on others against their will. And you can make a reasonable argument that the lack of religious-born morality significantly increased the scale of things.
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Not exactly, but is it necessary for people to "accept Jesus" to live a good, respectable life and have a passion to see a better world? I don't respect Jesus (if he existed) above any other man and still:
1. I am not addicted to any vices (some would call "sin") and NEVER have.
2. Love my family and is very loyal to them
3. Always smiling and always looking for a situation to help others
4. I'm patient, caring, kind and generous (if I have it)
5. I'm not mean-spirited nor do I wish anyone any harm even people who have screwed me over. I generally get over things, even serious things, in about ONE day.
6. I am rather respected by all those who know me in real life.
ALL of the above "without" Jesus or any gods.
I never have and never will claim that anyone must have religion in order to be a good person. I've known several atheists who were among the best people I've ever known.
Quote:
That being said, I knowy SOME people need a Jesus/god for one reason or another. If they really buy into the idea they are miserable, hopeless, diseased bums, then it stands to reason they might find the need for some divine doctor to cure them. Others need that balance of a bribe of heaven and fear of retribution to prevent them from being the wicked person they are (until necessary) because I've known and met some Christians and I can tell you some stories.
You're making it sound like it's a bad thing to incorporate God into being a good person. Ultimately, if God exists and is as Judeo-Christian teachings describe, then it is vastly more wise to make Him part of the equation, rather than leaving him out of it. Christians actually practicing Christianity as it was intended will always be better people than the would have or could have been otherwise.
It was never intended that God would forcefully prevent us from reverting back to bad habits. The best piece of wisdom about incorporating God into your life: Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you. Walking with real faith in God takes effort.
The debate over the existence of God and the afterlife is a dead-end. You can't prove beyond all doubt that there is no God. I can't prove beyond all doubt that there is. (And rather than hijacking this thread over it, I think we should just leave it at that.)
I'm sure you can tell me some stories about some Christians. I can tell you stories about some atheists who took their rejection of the existence of God as a free pass to do anything and everything they wanted, legal nor illegal. It wasn't pretty, let me tell you.
Let's be honest, you have lousy examples of human beings on either side of the discussion and pointing it out isn't telling anyone something the didn't already know. There are some really bad people amongst every religion, non-religion, race, creed or ethic group is just a fact of life. All other types of undesirable people are likewise mixed in all of the above as well.
That's fine I just hope you're not blasting me for sharing my own experience on the matter -- because you followed that up with you sharing YOUR experience. After all, I did qualify my statement saying that maybe Rafius is happy. Hey, maybe he's way happier now as an atheist than ever before. My experience was the exact opposite.
I hope we can at least agree that it's not wrong to share your own personal experience on this or any other matter.
True, but I think that when you actually love others no matter what, that is a lot more powerful. It leads to even better outcomes than following what Confucius says.
I do think that the wisdom of "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is one of those obvious bits of wisdom. If you could erase all memory of history, religion and philosophy from humankind, this is one of those things that is just destined to recreate itself every single time.
If it doesn't hurt the cause of human beings treating each other better, I don't see why any agenda against all the trappings of religion is necessary - even if there was no God and no afterlife, I don't think you're really gaining much.
Very often, religion is the scapegoat for bad things being done by bad people. It could be reasonably argued that having a morally conscientious population kept some of the bloodiest theocrats in history in check, limiting the body count and extremes of their rule.
Consider that atheistic ideology in the form of Marxism completely blew away even the bloodiest theocrat in human history. The body count, torture, unspeakable crimes, forced mass-migration and extremes of mistreatment of human beings: Marxism took it to levels nobody before them ever imagined.
Most atheists today absolutely refuse to be categorized with Marxists, and this is commendable. No sane person would want to be associated with them. But one of the pillars of Marxism every time it was implemented was large scale programs trying to erase all religion from existence. So saying they weren't atheists is like saying that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus -- it's just a complete load of crap. The crimes of Marxism stand as a warning of what can happen if atheism seeks to impose itself (and the rest of Marxist ideology) on others against their will. And you can make a reasonable argument that the lack of religious-born morality significantly increased the scale of things.
I never have and never will claim that anyone must have religion in order to be a good person. I've known several atheists who were among the best people I've ever known.
You're making it sound like it's a bad thing to incorporate God into being a good person. Ultimately, if God exists and is as Judeo-Christian teachings describe, then it is vastly more wise to make Him part of the equation, rather than leaving him out of it. Christians actually practicing Christianity as it was intended will always be better people than the would have or could have been otherwise.
It was never intended that God would forcefully prevent us from reverting back to bad habits. The best piece of wisdom about incorporating God into your life: Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you. Walking with real faith in God takes effort.
The debate over the existence of God and the afterlife is a dead-end. You can't prove beyond all doubt that there is no God. I can't prove beyond all doubt that there is. (And rather than hijacking this thread over it, I think we should just leave it at that.)
I'm sure you can tell me some stories about some Christians. I can tell you stories about some atheists who took their rejection of the existence of God as a free pass to do anything and everything they wanted, legal nor illegal. It wasn't pretty, let me tell you.
Let's be honest, you have lousy examples of human beings on either side of the discussion and pointing it out isn't telling anyone something the didn't already know. There are some really bad people amongst every religion, non-religion, race, creed or ethic group is just a fact of life. All other types of undesirable people are likewise mixed in all of the above as well.
I will just respond by saying I was NOT blasting you. Just presenting myself as an example of a person who does not believe in ANY gods but still live a pretty decent life by general standards. Also, "if God exists and is as Judeo-Christian teachings describe..." is a large if for me.
Yes, there are good people who happen to also be Christians (my mom being one of them and me being one of them some years back). The need for a god, in retrospect, was never needed other than for some imagined "condition" I was told I had...but that's just me.
I used to believe there was a Jesus person, but I've sat and listened to my good friend rifleman, whose mind is very logical and thorough (even when he was on pain meds!), and he's pretty much easily convinced me, and pointed out the similar ideas of many others, that there probably was no such person. That he's simply a construct of convenience, a useful go-between to allow the timid and illiterate villagers and goat herds of the time to communicate with their God.
Couple this with the total lack of any historical information (tax records, stories about girl-friends and illegitimate offspring and nights of heavy drinking and carousing) and you can easily conclude he was a poorly done invention. Pure and simple. Sorry, Christy.
I will just respond by saying I was NOT blasting you. Just presenting myself as an example of a person who does not believe in ANY gods but still live a pretty decent life by general standards. Also, "if God exists and is as Judeo-Christian teachings describe..." is a large if for me.
Yes, there are good people who happen to also be Christians (my mom being one of them and me being one of them some years back). The need for a god, in retrospect, was never needed other than for some imagined "condition" I was told I had...but that's just me.
Glad to hear that you were not on the attack there. I wasn't completely sure. Unfortunately, many of the atheists posting here do tend to attack and attack and attack. I am happy to respect your right to disbelieve and hope that you accept my right to believe. We can agree to disagree I suppose.
You've got me curious about your story, but I don't want to hijack the thread over it.
At this point in time - does it matter if Jesus existed or not? We're never going to know for sure one way or the other. It's not like we can find his body and test his DNA against the DNA from his toothbrush or his hairbrush. It was 2000 years ago. It's too late. You either believe he existed on faith or you don't. Either way - what difference does it make? Christians are going to believe he existed based on their faith and non Christians either believe that he existed but was just a man or that he didn't exist at all. There's never going to be definitive proof - so you either have faith or you don't. Being the true agnostic/atheist that I am - my answer is - who knows? Not me!
At this point in time - does it matter if Jesus existed or not? We're never going to know for sure one way or the other. It's not like we can find his body and test his DNA against the DNA from his toothbrush or his hairbrush. It was 2000 years ago. It's too late. You either believe he existed on faith or you don't. Either way - what difference does it make? Christians are going to believe he existed based on their faith and non Christians either believe that he existed but was just a man or that he didn't exist at all. There's never going to be definitive proof - so you either have faith or you don't. Being the true agnostic/atheist that I am - my answer is - who knows? Not me!
You are correct, Dewdrop . . . and you have accurately pinpointed the faith that all Christians must have in Christ. All the other folderol and bickering is pointless.
In all probability, this jesus was a composite critter, made up of bits and pieces of several other critters. Most of them might actually be human.....sorta.
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