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I tell you what, I will start a new thread on Emergence and Consciousness. I can't promise that I will actively and thoroughly engage in a long debate on the subject, but I will try to clarify my thoughts on the subject. The poster Mystic is always wanting to engage me in this type of discussion, and I have resisted because it is so tedious to read his long and technical posts. It just feels like a huge commitment and is not as fun as the usual discussions I have here.
That'd be great. I'll break out the popcorn, a dictionary and a bottle of aspirin and try to follow along.
(Mystic isn't the only one... Your posts are rather technical for the likes of me, too. Just saying. )
This arises from your "matter" orientation and the failure to recognize that vibratory energy is all that exists. Its "slower" (frequency jams) forms are what exist at sub-light "speeds" . . . what you call matter. Its pure forms exist at light-squared "speed" as what you call energy. Whatever (molecular) vibrational "speed range" is involved . . . it is still just energy.
Russell makes the point that all we really know is the way in which we perceive this energy field through our senses. There is an underlying reality (energy field) but we never know it directly. There are variations in this energy field that are the "objects" of our perception, but they only become material in the mind of the observer. That helped me to understand even more clearly what you are saying here, I think.
This arises from your "matter" orientation and the failure to recognize that vibratory energy is all that exists. Its "slower" (frequency jams) forms are what exist at sub-light "speeds" . . . what you call matter. Its pure forms exist at light-squared "speed" as what you call energy. Whatever (molecular) vibrational "speed range" is involved . . . it is still just energy.
I acknowledge that matter/energy is one thing. I majored in physics and earned a minor in physics before I switched in psychology.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Our consciousness exists at the pure energy level (molecular) of light-squared speed . . . just like the flames of fire and other pure energy forms.
You state that as if it were an established fact, when it is not. That is your belief, but no one KNOWS that.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You must think that our consciousness does not exist . . because everything that really exists is in some form of energy at some vibrational "speed." Therefore it must BE somewhere in our reality as consciousness. Matter (like our brain) cannot contain ANYTHING that exists as pure energy (E=MC-squared) . . . as evidence: our nuclear bombs. Matter cannot be primary.
I believe consciousness exists. I don't believe that consciousness is a separate energy. I believe the energy that creates the effect of consciousness can be found in the expenditure of electromagnetic energy in the neurons (which comes from slightly positively and negatively charged ions; sodium, potassium, etc).
Russell makes the point that all we really know is the way in which we perceive this energy field through our senses. There is an underlying reality (energy field) but we never know it directly. There are variations in this energy field that are the "objects" of our perception, but they only become material in the mind of the observer. That helped me to understand even more clearly what you are saying here, I think.
You are doing very well, Grasshopper . . .he, he, All of our existence is comprised of vibrational "energy events" which manifest to us as composite spherical standing wave forms (matter). We just have to avoid ghetting solipsistic about our perceptions of these "events" (since we are "events" ourselves and our self-perceptions are similarly limited by our molecular senses).
I acknowledge that matter/energy is one thing. I majored in physics and earned a minor in physics before I switched in psychology.
That could help immensely.
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You state that as if it were an established fact, when it is not. That is your belief, but no one KNOWS that.
I believe consciousness exists. I don't believe that consciousness is a separate energy. I believe the energy that creates the effect of consciousness can be found in the expenditure of electromagnetic energy in the neurons (which comes from slightly positively and negatively charged ions; sodium, potassium, etc).
We KNOW consciousness does not reside in any physical part of the brain . . . since (as a physical state machine) its neuronal states cannot simultaneously contain the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of" and the "composite" awareness of the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of." It is this composite "resonance field" across the multiple neurons comprising the composite brain state that produces our awareness (consciousness). It is pure energy in that field . . . not matter. Furthermore . . . we experience it only in its in-process state (like "flames of consciousness" "fleeting thoughts and feelings") . . . but as energy it must be transformed or ultimately reside cumulatively within the universal field comprising our reality. Are you aware of anything that can transform existing consciousness energy into something else, Hueff?
I have over 9400+ post here Nozz. To expect me to repeat myself for every naysayer or atheist who doesn't understand is not reasonable.
Yet again with the cop outs. Every time I ask a direct question you find SOME way to avoid it. It is either you have no time... you have too many posts.... the other person is arrogant or some other insult you make up.... the other person simply wont understand the answer....
... always something. The excuses change... but the effect remains the same.... you cop out of answering direct questions.
We KNOW consciousness does not reside in any physical part of the brain . . . since (as a physical state machine) its neuronal states cannot simultaneously contain the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of" and the "composite" awareness of the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of."
I don't think consciousness is really awareness of the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of". I don't think it is a camera that takes video of the inside workings of itself. I think consciousness presents the impression that we are seeing the inside workings of our brain, but in that it is an illusion.
When you really think about it, we really don't have internal, mental access to the workings of our neurons. Try to think of what the neurons in your occipital lobe are doing now, or think about the neurons that compose your amygdala in your limbic system. Ask your brain why it forgets things? Ask your consciousness where it goes when you sleep and are not dreaming? We don't have access to any of that by trying to turn our mind in on itself.
And it is not just neuronal activity our minds aren't aware of, we largely aren't aware of the heuristics we use in our minds, that psychologists have discovered.
Some research slows that through brain imaging we know that when we are mentally weighing options before we make a decision, our neurons have made the decision before our minds are aware that we have made the decision. I really think consciousness is a story our brains create for us as a separate function independent of what our brains are really doing; I don't believe consciousness is an accurate real time picture of brain processing.
I don't think consciousness is really awareness of the "composite brain state-to-be-aware-of". I don't think it is a camera that takes video of the inside workings of itself. I think consciousness presents the impression that we are seeing the inside workings of our brain, but in that it is an illusion.
When you really think about it, we really don't have internal, mental access to the workings of our neurons. Try to think of what the neurons in your occipital lobe are doing now, or think about the neurons that compose your amygdala in your limbic system. Ask your brain why it forgets things? Ask your consciousness where it goes when you sleep and are not dreaming? We don't have access to any of that by trying to turn our mind in on itself.
You misunderstand, Hueff. It is a resonant composite itself of all the elements that comprise the active brain state at any given moment. It does not look inward . . . but it also cannot be both a composite of the brain states and the brain states themselves. The composite must reside outside the matter of the brain (pure energy) as a vibratory resonant field across all active neurons that we experience as our awareness.
Quote:
And it is not just neuronal activity our minds aren't aware of, we largely aren't aware of the heuristics we use in our minds, that psychologists have discovered.
Some research slows that through brain imaging we know that when we are mentally weighing options before we make a decision, our neurons have made the decision before our minds are aware that we have made the decision. I really think consciousness is a story our brains create for us as a separate function independent of what our brains are really doing; I don't believe consciousness is an accurate real time picture of brain processing.
I have tried to make this point repeatedly . . . our awareness is a quantum time-delayed resonant composite of the light "speed" EM state. This is time required to complete a cycle at light "speed" is what produces the composite at light-squared "speed." We experience our awareness as instantaneous and continuous . . . but it accumulates in light-squared resonant "molecular lumps of awareness" that take quantum time to form. So the time we measure is already the past relative to our consciousness. This is why it seems that the future communicates with the past in the transactional theory of quantum dynamics. When we measure a time interval . . . reality has already altered by the square of the speed of light because that is how long it takes our consciousness to form . . . hence Minkowski's constancy of the world interval equation.
Yet again with the cop outs. Every time I ask a direct question you find SOME way to avoid it. It is either you have no time... you have too many posts.... the other person is arrogant or some other insult you make up.... the other person simply wont understand the answer....
... always something. The excuses change... but the effect remains the same.... you cop out of answering direct questions.
I answered your direct questions in the atheist forum thread. Didn't you bother to read it . . . or are you just taking an oppoetunity to pretend I am avoiding your puerile questions.
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