Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To put it another way, the mutations might be random but what happens to them is not as they are constrained by very real factors.
Each random mutation is selected for, or against, by very real constraints in the internal and external environment in which that DNA finds itself. How it can be expressed, if it can be expressed, and what will happen if it is expressed are all constraints that change Evolution from a random process into a non random process with random elements.
Evolution is not... (as many creationnists want to paint it with their strawman images of throwing rubber and metal into a hole randomly and managing to construct a fully working car or Boeing 747)... the random slapping together of DNA with a lovely result. It is the very slow, incremental, editing of DNA... edits that are selected for or against by very real non random constraints.
As I said to the user above this is very... very very.... very different to saying it is "just" a random process. It is not.
To put it another way, the mutations might be random but what happens to them is not as they are constrained by very real factors.
Each random mutation is selected for, or against, by very real constraints in the internal and external environment in which that DNA finds itself. How it can be expressed, if it can be expressed, and what will happen if it is expressed are all constraints that change Evolution from a random process into a non random process with random elements.
Evolution is not... (as many creationnists want to paint it with their strawman images of throwing rubber and metal into a hole randomly and managing to construct a fully working car or Boeing 747)... the random slapping together of DNA with a lovely result. It is the very slow, incremental, editing of DNA... edits that are selected for or against by very real non random constraints.
As I said to the user above this is very... very very.... very different to saying it is "just" a random process. It is not.
Ok, but how does that editing work? If the organism has no conciousness of self or it's evironment, who or what selects the traits necessary to survive? If it's not directed by SOMETHING it seems still to be just random chance.
Ok, but how does that editing work? If the organism has no conciousness of self or it's evironment, who or what selects the traits necessary to survive? If it's not directed by SOMETHING it seems still to be just random chance.
Strange, I answered this in the post you just replied to. It might be worth reading it again. However I am happy to reiterate it. Important to note is that the most important word in your whole response is "seems".
The selection is done by the environment that that DNA finds itself in. That environment includes the actual place the organism lives, the other creatures there, the food available there, the gases in the atmosphere there, the amount of sunlight that is available.
Economy also selects for or against changes. It is not useful, for example, to randomly mutate into a stronger or bigger version of your species if that change requires more food... and that food is not available. Every change comes with a price... a cost which has to be paid for in some way.... and the ability to pay that cost, and the benefits of paying that cost.... will all go towards selection.
The beauty of it is that the environment, the economy and all the other factors I speak of do the selection mindlessly. There is no need for a design, a conciousness, or a "direction" as such aside from continued survival... and more than the pathway a water drop follows down a window needs them.
Just like evolution, the waterdrops path might seem random, but it is very much being constrained by factors such as gravity, friction, mass, imperceptible imperfections in the glass and more. Some elements of it's path might be random but there are very real non random constraints on things which although maybe imperceptible to you, are still there. Its path might "seem" random, but there are constraints there... which is why for example the pathway will be down, not up.
Evolution works just like that. DNA is finding a path into the future, rather than down a window pane. There are random elements to the path it can take, but there are very real constraints of environment, economy and more on the paths it can take. It is not "just" random.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nozzferrahhtoo again."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Strange, I answered this in the post you just replied to. It might be worth reading it again. However I am happy to reiterate it. Important to note is that the most important word in your whole response is "seems".
The selection is done by the environment that that DNA finds itself in. That environment includes the actual place the organism lives, the other creatures there, the food available there, the gases in the atmosphere there, the amount of sunlight that is available.
Economy also selects for or against changes. It is not useful, for example, to randomly mutate into a stronger or bigger version of your species if that change requires more food... and that food is not available. Every change comes with a price... a cost which has to be paid for in some way.... and the ability to pay that cost, and the benefits of paying that cost.... will all go towards selection.
The beauty of it is that the environment, the economy and all the other factors I speak of do the selection mindlessly. There is no need for a design, a conciousness, or a "direction" as such aside from continued survival... and more than the pathway a water drop follows down a window needs them.
Just like evolution, the waterdrops path might seem random, but it is very much being constrained by factors such as gravity, friction, mass, imperceptible imperfections in the glass and more. Some elements of it's path might be random but there are very real non random constraints on things which although maybe imperceptible to you, are still there. Its path might "seem" random, but there are constraints there... which is why for example the pathway will be down, not up.
Evolution works just like that. DNA is finding a path into the future, rather than down a window pane. There are random elements to the path it can take, but there are very real constraints of environment, economy and more on the paths it can take. It is not "just" random.
I hope so as it is the main point I was trying to make with things like the 52 card analogy. The entire point is that there are numerous ways that the plant can achieve the attraction of insects. The world is full of different plants who have achieved it in different ways.
No. It is not. I think you have fallen into the trap of thinking that offering evidence is a two step process, not a three step process. You are not alone. Many people think that giving evidence is a two step process as follows:
1) Make a claim
2) List some stuff, call it evidence, and then run away.
This is what you do. You make a claim such as that there is a god. Then you list some stuff like "complexity of life" and you run. In fact the presenting of evidence is a three step process as follows:
1) You make a claim.
2) You list the things you feel are evidence for that claim.
3) You explain exactly how and why 2 supports 1.
It is step 3 you fail to do and it is the most important step. You do not just get to throw out claims, randomly list some stuff, and then sit back as if you have proven your case. It is... as I said before.... a cop out.
Ok, I'll take you up on your challenge.
1}There is a Creator God or a Supreme "force" so to speak.
2} The very complexity of life itself is evidence for this Creator God
3} One living cell contains enough information inside of it that if it were translated onto paper, it would fill the equivelant of an entire volume of an Encylopedia. The human brain would fill the equivelant of 20,000 or maybe its million, Encyclopedias. Behind all this information is an intlligent message, a design or pattern.
You know, even if I concede the theory of evolution to you, you have still failed to tell me where that first flower came from! It could change its scent, its colors, or even the number of peddals it has 100, or even 1,000,000 times but the simple fact is, no matter how many times it changes, its always going to be a flower. You say that the envirement an organism lives in affects its evolutionary pattern, but what created that envirement? For example, the theory of evolution canb clearly be proven by looking at deep sea creatures. They have been in the dark so long that they have evolved to the point of not having eyes because its so dark, but they still remain the species in which they originated.
Quote:
Dont bother because you are attacking a strawman.
Even so, I hope you took the time to read more than the first sentence
Last edited by WhipperSnapper 88; 05-04-2011 at 06:22 PM..
It has been my experience that forums like this are best for exposing each other to different perspectives or ideas. But, if someone really wants to learn something that is rather complex, it is best done through one's individual study, and there are plenty of resources out there. I really think you will learn more about evolution and be more convinced by its ability to explain where flowers come from (among other things) by reading on your own.
Just as most Christians would say you can't really learn Christianity well in an online message forum, I would argue that you won't really learn about the origin of species through evolution by natural selection that well in an online message forum.
Here are a few websites that you can use to begin your research:
Sorry, they wouldnt let me edit this into my original post . . .
Nozzferrahhtoo, I do see how evolution can explain the variations amongst members of the same species, but it however, does not explain the vast amount of species here on earth. Where did that first dog come from? where did that first bird come from? where did that first monkey come from etc. etc.
thank you to the above poster, I will check these links out
The problem you are having is one I often illustrate with the 52 cards analogy.
If you place out 52 cards randomly, you simply have 52 cards in a row. They could have come out any way, but THIS is the way they did come out. Now if you spend the rest of your life, and your off spring do the same for many many generations, there is almost no chance they will ever get the same 52 cards in the same order again.
So why is your set of 52 not amazing? How did they "just happen" to come out that way by pure chance?
Your thinking if flawed in the same way. You are looking retrospectively back at what DID happen, assigning more wonder to it than it is due, and then wondering what the chances are of it happening just that way. Just like the 52 cards, you are missing the point that it did not have to happen that way. There are many things a plant could do to attract flies and other creatures. Many ways that the cards could have fallen.
With the meat smell, just like the 52 cards, you are too willing to focus on the result you DID get... ignore ENTIRELY the many many many other possible results.... pretend the result you DID get is super special... and then claim there must be some magic or design behind it.
The proof of such flawed thinking comes in comments, such as on this thread, of throwing a lot of rubber and metal together and coming out with a car. Evolution does not work that way, nor does anyone claim it does. So the analogy is nothing like it. It is just a strawman. Evolution makes slow, minor changes over a vast amount of time. Nothing at all like tossing metal and rubber into a hole.
Yes, there are what appears to be "random" combinations, and "losing hands" and "winning hands"...but some of the decks the cards are being dealt from are "stacked". You need to get hip to that.
1}There is a Creator God or a Supreme "force" so to speak.
2} The very complexity of life itself is evidence for this Creator God
3} One living cell contains enough information inside of it that if it were translated onto paper, it would fill the equivelant of an entire volume of an Encylopedia. The human brain would fill the equivelant of 20,000 or maybe its million, Encyclopedias. Behind all this information is an intlligent message, a design or pattern.
I am afraid this does not work because you are assuming 1 in order to validate 3.
The fact that a lot of information is coded into a small space might seem amazing because we are unable to achieve the same thing ourselves, but that does not de facto magically mean it therefore must be designed.
I am not unsympathetic to your false impression here however. We are a limited species, with limited mental capabilities and when we see something that wows us with it's complexity our own arrogance suggests that therefore something more intelligent than us must have "designed" it.
We act like complexity is an actual real thing that exists, and needs to be explained. It does not. Complexity is just a subjective thing, a measurement of our ability to comprehend something. Complexity is not, per se, an attribute of the thing being observed, but of the observers ability to understand it.
Outside of evolution, especially in mathematics, we are aware of many many cases where something very simple, when let run on, results in something very complex. That is all evolution and DNA is. Some very simple processes that have run long enough to result in what is, to us, a massively complex result.
It is no different that getting a few very simple numbers, a few very simple mathematical equations, and marveling at the massively complex fractal images they result in and the patterns that emerge within them.
As evidence for there being a god entity therefore, it fails entirely. Feel free to try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123
you have still failed to tell me where that first flower came from!
Failed? Because I did not answer a question you have not even asked me? Not once on this thread did you ask me where the first flower came from... and now you are jumping up and down telling me I have failed to answer it? Have some level of honesty please. It is not a failure to not answer a question you have not even been asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123
You say that the envirement an organism lives in affects its evolutionary pattern, but what created that envirement?
You say "created" as if it was a one off thing that happened once and we are stuck with it. This is a false impression of things. The environment is being constantly recreated all the time. Many 1000s of years ago for example the environment was very oxygen poor. The action of organisms released more oxygen and so the environment was changed. Life evolved and adapted to that new availability of oxygen.
It is not a one way system in other words. It is not life sitting inside an environment that affects it. It is a circular process. The environment around a species causes an effect... which affects the environment... which in turn affects the species... which affects the environment... on and on and on.
Take a random example....
1) A species X randomly evolves to be bigger and that gives it an advantage over the rest of species X so this advantage is selected for
2) Species X now needs more food to sustain that. It eats more.
3) Over time the food supplies (an aspect of the environment of species X) dwindle and become more scarce.
4) The smaller members of the species need less food, and are faster so get the food first. Being small is now what is advantageous and is selected for.
5) The lower demand on food supplies means the food supply is allowed proper again...
... and this is only one of millions of examples. Species are not the only thing in a constant state of flux. The environment around them is too, in many many little ways. It is a complex, endless interplay of factors on both sides, each affecting the other endlessly.
And yes to us this all appears massively complicated. But despite your attempt above... complexity is not synonymous with design... no matter how much you might like it to be.
I do see how evolution can explain the variations amongst members of the same species, but it however, does not explain the vast amount of species here on earth.
Yes. It does. All current species are... are previous species that have varied amongst themselves so much so as to become indistinguishable from each other.
This not only explains the vast amount of species on earth... but also the vast... vast.... amount of commonality that there is between the species.
A monkey, a tiger and a giraffe all look massively different to us, but lay out their skeletons, their organs, their basic patterns and you see that the differences between them are actually quite slight. The vast diversity we perceive around us really is not that diverse at all. Slight modifications are all that is required to give the appearance of a multitude of diversity.
This is exactly what one expects from evolution. All the diversity is achievable by slight sequential modification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Yes, there are what appears to be "random" combinations, and "losing hands" and "winning hands"...but some of the decks the cards are being dealt from are "stacked".
Says you. But saying X does not magically make X true. If you have any actual evidence to back up your claim then I am all ears. To date I have seen literally zero evidence that any design, or tinkering is required or has occurred, nor evidence that there exists a tinkerer.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
