Stephen Hawking:heaven a "fairy story" (Egyptian, protestant, Adam)
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Sanspeur, my reply goes deeper than that. Atheism has no claim to an absolute moral law since it is based on naturalism. Relativism reigns in Atheism. Now, I am not saying an atheist is unable to live a moral life... that would be nonsense, and we all know this is false; however, in order to do this the atheist has to smuggle in ethics that traditionally come from the very religions they try to dismantle. What I am saying is this... a regime such as Stalin's can be the natural outworking of an atheistic world view... it does not violate the philosophy of atheism, whereas this same regime would be in direct violation of the Christian worldview.
Atheism had EVERYTHING to do with Stalin... once upon a time he was a seminary student but decided to drop out and renounce his faith in God. He went on to exterminate millions of his own people, and his own daugher states on his death bed the last thing he did was shake his fists in anger and look up to the sky. His entire life was to rebel against the god he once believed in. The 20th century was supposed to be the time for atheism to shine... and it has been the bloodiest century in the history of the earth.
Try to escape it as much as you can, but atheism simply does not allow for an absolute moral law.
Absolute moral laws do not exist, and I am correct about atheism. Why your brain cannot compute that simple fact is beyond me...Atheists do not believe in any deity...Seems pretty simple to me.
So then, would it follow that the Pope is an "Expert Christian"?
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Means about the same to me as an "Expert Astrologist".
I do agree with Stephen Hawking that heaven as it's popularly imagined is a fairy story, along with a lot of things that have been conjured by imagination. On another level, though, I would look to Hawking for metaphysics--and we ALL have a metaphysical position--as much as I would look to, say, Bob Vila.
Oh, one whole scientist! You're off to a good start, when you can cough up a few hundred more credible scientists you might be on to something.
I like to introduce them one by one.
Quote:
There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.
- Dr. Paul Davies, astronomer
no longer is evolution an “unchallenged” principle. The creation research society is just one organization with over 600 members with at least a master’s degree in a recognized area of science. As early as 1979, science digest reported: “scientists who utterly reject evolution may be one of our fastest-growing controversial minorities… many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science.” even the korean association of creation research has 150 ph.d. Scientist members and 300 other scientists with master’s degrees.
A. Lunn summed up the curious faith of the evolutionist as follows: "Faith is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links unseen." (The Collapse of Evolution, by Dr. Scott Huse.
Atheism has NOTHING to do with communism, Stalin, Mao,etc. Atheism just simply means an absence of belief in a god/gods. I'm not sure how a totalitarian regime logically follows that, then again I'm not used to religious folks being big fans of logic.
Madmen flew planes into buildings on 9/11 in the name of god. Stalin didn't rule Russia in the name of (no) god. Besides, for all of your arrogant theist blather on "ethics" and "morals" and all of that horse**** why don't you gaze at the history of organized religion? From modern day Islamic terrorists and child raping Catholic Priests, to the blood soaked "holy" wars of yesteryear I'd say religion has some bloody hands.
We can't discount the mental anguish and torment that is inflicted upon the faithful. A life of religion is a life of unearned and unhealthy guilt. Original Sin is a monstrous hellish idea that is the source of untold terror. What kind of effed up "absolute moral law" allows for children to pay for the sins of their parents? What the hell kind of justice is that?
Don't get me started on the doctrine of hell. Say what you want about Atheists but at least we never threaten those who dare to dissent with an eternity to roast in a torture chamber that Stalin could only envy. Stalin was a thug but he had NOTHING on the god of the Bible. Mass murders, baby slayings, rape, pillage, death, destruction, floods, massacre, and don't forget the ultimate trump card: eternal hell. Whose the most evil character in literary history? Jehovah.
You're drivel about "absolute moral law" would be worth debating if it weren't for religions appalling history of human rights abuses. I don't look to Iran or Dark Ages Europe for my morality, I'm sorry but I don't. I also don't look at Bronze Age fairy tale books full of mass murder and baby slayings for my morality either. If Yahweh is where theists derive their morality no wonder the world is so messed up. After all terrorists are just following god's lead. Glance at the blood soaked Old Testament if you don't believe me.
My morality is simple, seek first to do no harm. I do not initiate force on my fellow man, my rights end where theirs begins, which includes property rights. Life, liberty, and property. I don't have to "smuggle" those ethics from religion, especially since theism isn't big on property rights.
By the way, the Enlightenment Period is a much better example of freethinking in action. You know, where "heretics" were busy saving the West from the insanity of religionists? Also, the foundation of America is another good example. Freethinking deists (mostly) founding a country, not based on kings or gods, but "Life, Liberty, and Property" to quote John Locke.
Your post is mostly just typical theist doublespeak that wishes to preach to us nonbelievers about our inherent unmorality while completely and utterly ignoring their own history of violence and destruction.
Northbound, I must say... you took my post awfully personal. Concept of hell? When did I touch on that? It's funny how you make a claim that religious fundamentalists are out of line, yet you are the one who is getting personal and is on the offensive. It's quite ironic that so many on here blame religious people for attacking and persecuting people for who they are, when there are plenty of hot heads in this very forum that claim to take the higher road of atheism. . . . Never once did I say an atheist is immoral. You'd do well to read and comprehend my original post, but then, as we all know, intent is prior to content.
Your emotional flurry has missed the entire point of my post. I never said religion has not committed atrocities... in fact, I even admitted it.To your point about your morality... but of course, you do nothing but prove my point. You start off with "my morality is simple." That's great, and I am sure you live a moral life... but what if someone else's idea of what is moral or good differs from yours? How are they wrong? How are you right? There is no reference point for morality in atheism. I agree with you that there should be a clear separation of church and state. The crusades is what happens when people politicize religion.
Bottom line... the 20th century was atheism's century to shine, since the religous schackles were figuratively thrown off and giants such as Friedrich Nietzsche ushered in the era and idea of godlessness on a massive scale. You speak of atheism as if it is a vastly superior worldview. Tell me, what has it done to pull humanity closer? Has it ushered in a more peacful era? How has its sophisticated principles done better than religious worldviews? And how does it answer the most important questions in life?
Absolute moral laws do not exist, and I am correct about atheism. Why your brain cannot compute that simple fact is beyond me...Atheists do not believe in any deity...Seems pretty simple to me.
Hi Sanspeur -
An answer such as "and I am correct about atheism" is not exactly a thoughtful response to my post, is it? So essentially you say that, and then resort to name calling. I must say... this is quite constructive!
You say absolute morals do not exist. Would it be wrong for someone to rape? What about hurling a human being into the air in order to use them as target practice?
Oh please do. The facts will oppose you, as compared to your desperately hoped-for statistics ("There are lies, damned lies and statistics!" Mark Twain).
Anyone in any field can always find a nay-sayer or ten. Even hundreds of them, oh wow! This is no way changes the true, measurable facts. In FACT, there are literally tens of millions of new graduates out of the fields of engineering, general science and, specifically, biology, every single year on this planet, and they have pretty much all learned, and done the necessary clear and logical field experiments, to PROVE, categorically, that Evolution is exactly how the DNA in a given species changes over time to "create" a new tribe, then a race, then a sub-species and eventually a species. And it thoroughly explains the diversity that we can so easily observe all around us. We're finding new species literally every hour these days.
We now have the singularly most powerful tool available, one that categorically sinks the "creationist" boat in one well-aimed broadside shot:
To wit: DNA genome mapping.
Coupled with such things as mitochondrial DNA tracing (unchanged in the female egg donor's genotype except by evolution) this led researchers inexorably across the sub- and Asian continents, up into China and across the Bering Seas, plus into southern, and eventually northern Europe, proving without a doubt not only the physical and genetic origins of early man as a species (out of southern Africa, as we already knew from the Doctors Leaky et al.
Not only that little zinger, but the boys down in San Diego are mapping literally every single extant and non-extant organism they can lay their hands and DNA mapping system on, and guess what? They find absolute links between the species we could only previously "suggest" were linked in the past, but now we have the uncontestable, incontrovertible and unambiguous evidence to prove it.
Now I know you won't buy this, because you are an IDTr*, and no matter what is placed in front of you, absent any formal training in the Scientific Method, you'll just turn a deaf ear. And mind.
It's not what you want to hear, so, heck: you just won't! A simple enough life's philosophy, I must agree, but sadly, it's vastly, pathologically ignorant, and it's the key indicator of The Scientifically Illiterate!
*IDT: Intransigent Dogmo-Theist. An individual whose totally uncritical devotion to Dogmatic Theism prevents them from learning anything new, of which, BTW, there is now a near-unending supply.
Not so with Christian Dogma: it's a carved-in-stone set of now-ancient and thoroughly discredited rules and claims that were conceived of and written down back when lightning was obviously The Hand of Almightly God striking down... well....whatever. And the tides were The Almighty Hand of God tilting this flat earth.
And man was (POOF!) deposited on this earth one sunny afternoon, and his main squeeze formed out of a rib bone (snort...) and yet somehow "begot' literally everyone, until the big FLood, when Noah's kids and later, an inexplicable bunch of previously unmentioned women, "begot" literally 6.5 billion of us, all of us vastly different genetically, in a mere 2400 years!
Which, given the vast and DOCUMENTED numbers of historical deaths by such things as smallpox, the plague, wars and other diseases, is technically, mathematically and intellectually impossible. Hey, but who's counting, or thinking, huh? Let's just let all that ride!
So hey: that's OK: you go ahead and cite the hundred, or two hundred, or even 10,000 or so guys "with a degree" (Eeewww! Eeewwww Wow!!) that claim to "know" Evolution is not true. That hard-nosed and inalterable belief only defines them as mentally incapable of logical thought, or of letting their prior childhood Christianity thoroughly cloud their adult judgement. After all, they too are IDTrs, by definition.
You should also know that if I could magically get in touch with them all, there would be, oh I'd say.... about 2 or 3 billion scientifically degreed people on this planet who would laugh at your claim, and affirm the obvious: the documented and the now-completely proven fact of Evolution.
So there! (Oh, and BTW, I have several degrees, (more than 2, less than 5..., and ALL in the sciences!) so in your eyes, I must be a god, huh? Statistically speaking you understand....)
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