Stephen Hawking:heaven a "fairy story" (gospel, Jews, scripture)

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Simplefool

So God has deemed you worthy Campbell? Even through all the suffering in the world, God chose to give you your first job? It obviously wasn't anything earthly that got it for you, an interview or something... He whispered in your ear that your wife was pregnant? (Maybe he even did it himself, did you get a DNA test?) It couldn't have just been a good guess based on visual/logical cues? Maybe you had sex without a condom, maybe she had been experiencing morning sickness, maybe it was just an urgent hope she was pregnant that happened to come true. How did you decide you are worthy of his words, of his assistance in your everyday human activities? Who are you that the Lord seeks you out to help you with your problems and leaves others to fate?

The bible IS full of exaggerated and unverifiable claims! Even true Christians say you can not take all of its word at face value. Some of the stories in the Bible are downright terrible! Aesop's fables had better moral values than some of the stories in the bible, and they didn't pretend to be based on fact. The image the boy claims to have seen of Jesus with nails in his hands and feet is meaningless. I saw that image the first day I walked into a church with my parents when I was but a baby.

I've said this before and I will say it again. Quit claiming fiction as fact. Trying to prove your religion by claiming stories and myths as truth is ridiculously futile. That kind of thinking is an insult to your own religion. You serve the dish of your own religion's debasement. You erode the foundation underneath yourself. I have no problem with a person attempting to have their voice heard, their feelings on a subject understood. I do have a problem with someone using groundless information, or outright falsehoods, to coerce someone into altering their beliefs.

When I was young I gave my life to Jesus Christ. While many of my friends imbraced drugs, ect. I searched for Christ. After a failed job interview I returned home and was going up the stairs when I heard this voice. It said. "Tom, you did everything but pray about getting a job." I was surprised because of the voice I heard. Yet found myself agreeing with it. So I continued up the stairs and walked into my mom and dads bedroom. I knelt down and told God that He must know I needed a job. And then told Jesus whatever happens now will be because of you. As soon as I said the (A) of Amen the phone next to me began to ring. I picked up the phone and the man on the other end of the line asked if my name was Tom Campbell. He said he just found some paperwork I had dropped off two weeks before, and asked me if I could start work for his company the next Monday morning at 8 A.M. I did, and that was my first real job. The fact that I heard the voice, and the fact that this man called me while I was still on my knees only confirmed the reality of Jesus Christ to me.

Years later when I was driving home from working the 4 to 12 shift I was just thanking God for my life, when He interrupted me while I was in the middle of a prayer and said. "Your wife is going to have a child." I could not believe what I heard. Yet I thanked God for this. And got home as soon as I could. I wanted to tell my wife what I was told. However my wife was already asleep. And I recall leaning against the bedroom door and saying. "My poor wife she is pregnant and does not even know it." So I went to bed and thought I would just tell her in the morning. As it turned out. I heard her in the bathroom a few hours later trying to throw up. As it turned out, she was pregnant.

Jesus Christ is the living God. And I have a lifetime of experiences with Him. None of my stories are the product of fiction. However if you have only a worldly mind. Such stories are hard to believe. And that is because the God of the Bible is not real to you.

[catman]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

...that is because the God of the Bible is not real to you.

You are correct about that.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Jesus Christ fulfilled 300 prophecies found in the Old Testament. And clearly the Old Testament tells us that before the end of time. We would first see the Jewish people return to the land of Israel and Jerusalem. Sir Issac Newton was actually more of a Biblical expert in prophecy then he was a scientist. And Newton told us 250 years ago that before we would see the return of Jesus Christ, we would first see the Jewish people return from a world wide exile. They would return to Israel and Jerusalem. And their return would anger many nations around the world. This evidence is both verifiable and true.

The story of Jesus was written to fit the 300 prophecies,

Newton was a great scientist in material, testable matters but an absolute fool in other areas, such as alchemy, astrology and Bible prediction.

Your attempts to show that Bible prediction is panning out are part based on self fulfillment by the Jewish desire to 'return' and part on interpreting the Bible pretty freely.

We have been here before many times but this is just to reiterate that you are yet again claiming a case that is no case.


We frankly doubt your anecdotes of personal experiences of divine messages or demon visitations. There was a poster here who swore that he was Jesus Christ in person, so the sad fact is that unverified claims are not reliable evidence of anything.

We have also seen evidence of you tweaking of facts to make them fit your case. Can we doubt that you have tweaked your amazing prophecy fulfilled story to make it look good? We don't know. What we don't know for sure we can't take as proof of anything.

In a way, the reason why we can't believe stories about heaven is because it simply makes no sense and is based on pretty free and, indeed, variable interpretations of Gospel text without, I suggest, any real understanding of what the gospel text context was.

Since the basis is nonsensical, the anecdotes purporting to validate that basis are doomed from the start. You may as well have (I recall that someone did(1) a sort of Camelot vision down at Tintagel when we are as sure as anyone can be that anything resembling Arthurian legend has to be bosh.

That's where we are with heavens and hells too and that's why I concur with Hawkin's view that it is a fairy tale.

BTW. Hope you're keeping well after your operation, mate.

(1) I think it was Rudolph Steiner

[NorthGAbound12]

Originally Posted by Fleet

PROVE that death is the "final chapter." "Misfirings" of the brain cannot explain all NDEs.

As you are making the positive claim "afterlife exists" the burden of proof is on you. That little illogical trick theists pull trying to dump the burden of proof is akin to me making a claim that a tiny invisible unicorn flies around my head all day and then me asking you to prove that it doesn't in fact exist.

[NorthGAbound12]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Well before you suggest the Bible is filled with exaggerated unverifiable claims. You should read it first. Especially before you ask why this 4 year old kid saw marks on Jesus hands and feet. I never saw Jesus myself to my knowledge. However, He did get me my first job, and He told me my wife was going to have a child before my wife even knew. Christians have had encounters with Jesus for thousands of years. Only the world turns a deaf ear to such claims. Non Christians really don't want evidence. What they do want, is deny anything that supports the Biblical account.

I have read the Bible. I was a Christian for 20 years. I read my Bible every night (well not every night, but there would be stretches of months where I'd read it, and then I'd stop but I'd pick back up), attended church every Sunday, I was a true believer. I used to be on internet forums defending Christianity. I was a Creationist true believer.

Having read the New Testament several times I'm well aware of the fantastic crazy claims that Jesus makes, "if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can tell a mountain to move and it will," etc. Of course after those claims turn out to be bogus they become "metaphors" or "parables."

Oh and I'm well aware of the outlandish claims of the OT as well. A worldwide flood, 2 of every kind of animal on a boat, a burning bush talking, Jacob wrestling with god, the parting of the Red Sea, etc.

Those are unverifiable outrageous claims that have no foundation in reality and if a person were to make them today they'd be locked in a padded cell.

[NorthGAbound12]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Jesus Christ fulfilled 300 prophecies found in the Old Testament. And clearly the Old Testament tells us that before the end of time. We would first see the Jewish people return to the land of Israel and Jerusalem. Sir Issac Newton was actually more of a Biblical expert in prophecy then he was a scientist. And Newton told us 250 years ago that before we would see the return of Jesus Christ, we would first see the Jewish people return from a world wide exile. They would return to Israel and Jerusalem. And their return would anger many nations around the world. This evidence is both verifiable and true.

WRONG! Do you have not a skeptical bone in your entire body man!? The story of Jesus Christ was made up to fit fuzzy interpretations of the ramblings of tribal goat herders. Even still they did craptastic job so sometimes the "prophecies" had to be made up or outright lied about. Ask a Jew how he feels about the "prophecies" that Jesus "fulfilled."

[Radrook]

....the ramblings of tribal goat herders.

Solomon who wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Solomon, wasn't a goat herder, neither was Moses, who wrote the first five biblical books, nor Joshuah, nor any of the minor or major prophets. David was king of Israel when he wrote Psalms. Daniel was a high official in the court of Babylon. All were literate and well versed in the Law. Solomon was known for his wisdom and Moses was educated in the court of Pharoah as the adopted son of Pharoah's daughter.

In the NT
Luke, who wrote Acts and the Gospel bearing his name, was a physician, Mathew had been a tax collector-Paul, who was the most prolific writer of all apostles, had been a Pharasee by education and skilled tentmaker by trade, John who wrote five NT books had been a fisher.

All were inspired to write via God's holy spirit so their previous professions are really irrelevant.


BTW
Where do you get that silly goat-herding idea from?

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Radrook

In the NT
Luke, who wrote Acts and the Gospel bearing his name, was a physician, Mathew had been a tax collector-Paul, who was the most prolific writer of all apostles, had been a Pharasee by education and skilled tentmaker by trade, John who wrote five NT books had been a fisher.

Utter twaddle!!! The Gospels are anonymous. Nobody knows who wrote them.

[NorthGAbound12]

Originally Posted by Radrook

Solomon who wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Solomon, wasn't a goat herder, neither was Moses, who wrote the first five biblical books, nor Joshuah, nor any of the minor or major prophets. David was king of Israel when he wrote Psalms. Daniel was a high official in the court of Babylon. All were literate and well versed in the Law. Solomon was known for his wisdom and Moses was educated in the court of Pharoah as the adopted son of Pharoah's daughter.

In the NT
Luke, who wrote Acts and the Gospel bearing his name, was a physician, Mathew had been a tax collector-Paul, who was the most prolific writer of all apostles, had been a Pharasee by education and skilled tentmaker by trade, John who wrote five NT books had been a fisher.

All were inspired to write via God's holy spirit so their previous professions are really irrelevant.


BTW
Where do you get that silly goat-herding idea from?

What evidence is there that any of those people actually wrote what religionists claim they did? No one knows who actually wrote the Gospels and I for one doubt that anyone knows for sure who wrote any of the OT books.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

The story of Jesus was written to fit the 300 prophecies,

Newton was a great scientist in material, testable matters but an absolute fool in other areas, such as alchemy, astrology and Bible prediction.

Your attempts to show that Bible prediction is panning out are part based on self fulfillment by the Jewish desire to 'return' and part on interpreting the Bible pretty freely.

We have been here before many times but this is just to reiterate that you are yet again claiming a case that is no case.


We frankly doubt your anecdotes of personal experiences of divine messages or demon visitations. There was a poster here who swore that he was Jesus Christ in person, so the sad fact is that unverified claims are not reliable evidence of anything.

We have also seen evidence of you tweaking of facts to make them fit your case. Can we doubt that you have tweaked your amazing prophecy fulfilled story to make it look good? We don't know. What we don't know for sure we can't take as proof of anything.

In a way, the reason why we can't believe stories about heaven is because it simply makes no sense and is based on pretty free and, indeed, variable interpretations of Gospel text without, I suggest, any real understanding of what the gospel text context was.

Since the basis is nonsensical, the anecdotes purporting to validate that basis are doomed from the start. You may as well have (I recall that someone did(1) a sort of Camelot vision down at Tintagel when we are as sure as anyone can be that anything resembling Arthurian legend has to be bosh.

That's where we are with heavens and hells too and that's why I concur with Hawkin's view that it is a fairy tale.

BTW. Hope you're keeping well after your operation, mate.

(1) I think it was Rudolph Steiner

1. So are you saying Hitler killed 6 million Jews to incourage the other Jews to return to Israel? Is that what you call self fulfillment?

2. Are you saying the nations blocked the Jews from seeking refuge in their nations during world war II to incourage the Jews to return to Israel?
Is that what you call self fulfillment?

3. Are you saying that Newton was wrong when he told us 250 years ago that the Jewish people would be returning from a worldwide exile, and return to the land of Israel and Jerusalem before the year 2060? Did Newton know about Hitler, or did he just base his understanding on the Bible? I believe what is nonsensical to you is the truth. That is why you dismiss Netons Biblical understanding of Bible prophecy even if it is true.

4. And as far as the poster who said he was Jesus Christ. That did verify what Scripture already told us. That many people would come in Christ name saying they were Christ.

David Wilkerson another Christian told us in 1974 that there would be peace between the United States, Russia, China, and Eastern Europe. He was right.

Wilkerson also told us in 1985 that there would be a holocaust of oil well fires burning in the Middle East. Five years later we all saw 700 oil well fires burning at one time in the Middle East. Wilkerson was right again.

Wilkerson was killed on April 27, 2011. And during that 24 hour period America experienced it's worst tornado outbreak in it's history. Wilkerson was killed in Texas, and that is where this tornado outbreak started. Wilkerson warned the world that God was going to start useing the weather to warn mankind of God's coming judgement. Such facts should not be dismissed or overlooked.

The only way you can say such stories make no sense. Is if you are willing to ignore what is already true. The truth is not nonsensical. To ignore it is. Everything that has been shown to you, is part of a much bigger plan.