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Unread 09-03-2007, 01:15 PM
 
15 posts, read 19,147 times
Reputation: 11
So, just to surmise:

You are willing to make offensive and outrageous claims about a group of people and when asked for sources you claim that it is the responsibility of the reader to do the research.

You cling to the 'where there is smoke there is fire' theory.

You live in a community with Catholics so now you can speak knowledgeably about them.

Catholics usually (or in the past?) don't educate 'their women'.

Does that pretty much cover it?

Let me ask another question. Have you ever done any research checking into LDS apologetics? They are out there. On the web. You don't even have to leave your couch.

Let me be clear. I'm not an LDS member. I disagree with their teachings. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Eric
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Unread 09-03-2007, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 5,142,668 times
Reputation: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomtoFour View Post
I second the request for source citations.

I also think it's important to distinguish between 19th-century Mormons, present-day members of fundamentalist polygamous groups, and present-day members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the largest Mormon group).

Why is this important? Is it more important than studying the history of the LDS movement and thereby identify common threads of teachings, organizational structure, and public pronouncements?
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Unread 09-03-2007, 04:52 PM
 
122 posts, read 220,475 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Golden, of all the things you have passed along about those evil, cheating, woman stealing Mormons, I like this in particular. It explains much and helps me understand history.

I could never understand how Hitler was able to convince all of Germany that the Jews were the root of the countries problems and to exterminate them. Your post has clarified the issue for me. Just give a people or religion a bad reputation and most will believe it is deserved.

This is off topic Sarge but Hitler learned his anti-semitism from people like Luther, Wagner, and Nietsche. The German people were well aquainted with anti-semitic thinking, and while most didn't approve of Hitlers measures, they found it easy to look the other way.

Back to the topic: Goldens blanket statements of all Mormons should be not be tolerated, since we have witnessed by the Nazi example, of where that kind of thinking can take a country.

I repeat: Mormans/LDS make excellent neighbors.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,416 posts, read 8,066,199 times
Reputation: 8446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
This is off topic Sarge but Hitler learned his anti-semitism from people like Luther, Wagner, and Nietsche. The German people were well aquainted with anti-semitic thinking, and while most didn't approve of Hitlers measures, they found it easy to look the other way.

Back to the topic: Goldens blanket statements of all Mormons should be not be tolerated, since we have witnessed by the Nazi example, of where that kind of thinking can take a country.

I repeat: Mormans/LDS make excellent neighbors.
Hey, folks! I have repeatedly said that the majority of your everyday Mormons (they prefer to be called LDS members, by the way) are probably very good folk, just gullible.

I sort of said 'Where there's smoke, there's fire'. This does not always hold true, but after a person hears the same old things, over and over from people who have no axe to grind, there just has to be truth behind it.

This is not to disregard the books written on the subject, and now a film.

The comparison with Hitler's Germany goes two ways. Somebody said there were rumors that Jews were evil, and eventually the public believed it.

I said, yes, but then there were rumors of people being gassed and in labor camps, etc, and too many people chose to ignore those rumors.

Drawing from that inference, when I hear these people telling such tales of being forced out of business, through illegal means, in Mormon country, I tend to believe it is true. I even remember the Federal government intervening in Salt Lake City because the governing body was Mormon and those poor outsiders had nobody to turn to in that state.

You don't have to look back into my Grandma's time, with tales of them dressing as Indians and killing and robbing nearby settlers and taking their females away.

There is a lot more that I have written, and I really believe that all those people and books were not lying. There is just too much there for that to be true. There is no conspiracy against LDS members. Just the evidence that some of them are really very bad people, that the guy who started it all, Joe Smith, was a liar and swindler(as found by a court in New York) and into magic.

In fact, PBS did a special on them a few years ago, and many believe these people were persecuted in their early religion and forced to move West because community after community, wherever they settled, people accused them of being swindlers and trying to take over local governments and when they did that they promoted their own to the detriment of the others living next to them.

Now, this is not your everyday Mormon. But it does say something about the leadership and their decision making ability. Oh, yes. They had the Living Prophet then, too, and it was God speaking through him, I guess, who lead these poor people astray.

No, like the early Catholics, who had families so big that they could not afford them because the church forbade birth control, I think these people are being lead down a primrose path.

But you are entitled to believe what you enjoy believing, just as I have the right to believe the folks I talk to. That's what makes this country so great.
We are free to like a religion, but we are also free to dislike one.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Indiana
1,250 posts, read 2,178,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Drawing from that inference, when I hear these people telling such tales of being forced out of business, through illegal means, in Mormon country, I tend to believe it is true. I even remember the Federal government intervening in Salt Lake City because the governing body was Mormon and those poor outsiders had nobody to turn to in that state.
Can you explain further what exact instance this was? You say that you don't have to go back to your grandmother's days to find these types of scenarios. When did the above situation occur? I've lived in "Mormon country" for quite awhile and I don't remember the federal government intervening in SLC.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Franklin
3,846 posts, read 6,360,959 times
Reputation: 2773
Excellent neighbors? I'm guessing you've never been subjected to the condescending Mormon. Ones who either disapprove of you behind your back, or those who straight-up tell you your church is off course while LDS is the "one true church". Gets old fast, especially when you know other LDS members who have been dishonest in business, but rationalize their behavior. I realize there are self-righteous and crooked people of all faiths, but this is different.

LDS is the only religion I feel this way about. Too many experiences over too many years with too many LDS have made me wary. OF course I'm not saying ALL are this way, but it does seem to be pervasive. It's almost as if they are told they are the special ones, the pure and right and chosen, until they actually believe they are better than everyone else. I don't know why this happens, but it happens.

Any insight from current or former LDS on this?

Anyone else read "Leaving the Saints"? I have mixed feelings about that book, but much of it rang true for me.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,416 posts, read 8,066,199 times
Reputation: 8446
It is so hard to remember. At the time I did not save the article because, contrary to what people here are trying to accuse me of, I am not on a campaign to ruin LDS members. I know, people here will say I am not truthful about this, but really, if this were a hate campaign I would have all the facts lined up and at my fingertips.

I know none of you guys believe me. For all I know you could all be LDS members pretending to be neighbors. But, if I said that, then I would be calling you guys liars, and I wouldn't want to do that.

There was Fed intervention which stopped some illegal practices structured to drive out the competition that were not LDS, one of which was the neighborhood businesses grouping together and financially supporting the LDS business selling the product UNDER cost to ruin their innocent, non-LDS competitor. I am surprised that people in the area don't know this, which leaves me wondering if the newspapers over there are LDS owned and somehow these articles are only in fine print on the last page, if at all.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:39 PM
 
1,999 posts, read 2,055,614 times
Reputation: 493
well at the time of the massacre and for decades before many non lds christians didnt treat the mormans very well in this country.mobs attacked,vandalized and murdered many mormans,the governor of missouri issued an extermination order against mormans,and shortly before the mountain meadows incident the president was sending troops toward utah,so there was a lot of tension on both sides.it has never been proven that brigam young ordered or approved of the attack.there is much evidence that a lot of people covered up after the fact.what any of this has to do with mitt romney or the modern church is beyond me.there are examples of atrocities in the name of most all religions in the past.mitt romney wasnt able to be elected and reelected to one of the most liberal states in the country,massachusetts,by being a rigid,religious ,right wing,idealogue.harry reid,the democrat leader in the senate is also a morman,but seems to get along with the liberals in his party quite well.why should anyone care if he beleaves in celestial marriage or if his ideas about heaven dont completely jive with theirs?what does that have to do with running the country?plenty of professed baptists,methodists,catholics,etc. have swindled people but that doesnt mean its an intregal part of church doctrine.
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Indiana
1,250 posts, read 2,178,053 times
Reputation: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
It is so hard to remember. At the time I did not save the article because, contrary to what people here are trying to accuse me of, I am not on a campaign to ruin LDS members. I know, people here will say I am not truthful about this, but really, if this were a hate campaign I would have all the facts lined up and at my fingertips.

I know none of you guys believe me. For all I know you could all be LDS members pretending to be neighbors. But, if I said that, then I would be calling you guys liars, and I wouldn't want to do that.

There was Fed intervention which stopped some illegal practices structured to drive out the competition that were not LDS, one of which was the neighborhood businesses grouping together and financially supporting the LDS business selling the product UNDER cost to ruin their innocent, non-LDS competitor. I am surprised that people in the area don't know this, which leaves me wondering if the newspapers over there are LDS owned and somehow these articles are only in fine print on the last page, if at all.
Sorry to be so full of questions, but do you remember about how many years ago this was? Was it in Salt Lake City or a small rural community?
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Unread 09-03-2007, 05:44 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 2,257,701 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
This is off topic Sarge but Hitler learned his anti-semitism from people like Luther, Wagner, and Nietsche. The German people were well aquainted with anti-semitic thinking, and while most didn't approve of Hitlers measures, they found it easy to look the other way.

Back to the topic: Goldens blanket statements of all Mormons should be not be tolerated, since we have witnessed by the Nazi example, of where that kind of thinking can take a country.

I repeat: Mormans/LDS make excellent neighbors.
It doesn't matter where anyone learned their values; it's the fact that they act like sheep and accept whatever they are shoveled. There were also Lutherans and followers of Nietzsche’s teachings in this country, but you didn't see any Americans jumping on the "Final Solution" bandwagon in this country. It takes the reasoning of Goldengrain to bring that out in people.
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