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I see much evidence for the existence of God(swt) and do believe he is real. I have not seen any evidence that Jesus(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God
It would take quite a bit to convince me Jesus(as) is the son of God. First step would be to convince me there would be any need for God(swt) to even come to earth as his son.
I don't know why people keep saying this. What evidence? Like the rampant starvation and unspeakable suffering endured by people in the third world (by far the biggest chunk of the world population)? The incredibly hostile, unliveable climates that God supposedly created on our "perfect" planet? Our natural surroundings are not perfect. If a creator really "designed" everything, than he's probably worse than your mediocre contractor. The design flaws are everywhere, from the vast expanses of desert that are unliveable, to the huge chunks of ice that are not suitable for life. And let' snot forget the "creation" of human beings that seem bent on their own destruction. Not exactly what I'd call "design." You have to come to terms with the idea that your "god" is either incredibly inept, or extremely malevolent.
I see much evidence for the existence of God(swt) and do believe he is real. I have not seen any evidence that Jesus(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God
It would take quite a bit to convince me Jesus(as) is the son of God. First step would be to convince me there would be any need for God(swt) to even come to earth as his son.
The part of us that is Spirit (our consciousness) is eternal . . . but if it does not have the proper resonance . . it remains separate from God's consciousness. No human consciousness prior to Jesus could even come close to the pure love that God is. He needed to send His Son in HUMAN form with a HUMAN consciousness so that His Holy Spirit would be an eternal part of the collective HUMAN consciousness. THAT is how He is the Way (or connection) to God for us ALL . . . thereby eliminating what would otherwise have been an eternal separation from God.
The part of us that is Spirit (our consciousness) is eternal . . . but if it does not have the proper resonance . . it remains separate from God's consciousness. No human consciousness prior to Jesus could even come close to the pure love that God is. He needed to send His Son in HUMAN form with a HUMAN consciousness so that His Holy Spirit would be an eternal part of the collective HUMAN consciousness. THAT is how He is the Way (or connection) to God for us ALL . . . thereby eliminating what would otherwise have been an eternal separation from God.
Mystic, I'm curious how you explain those who lived pre-Jesus who appear to have been more "resonant" with love/wisdom than many in the here and now?
The part of us that is Spirit (our consciousness) is eternal . . . but if it does not have the proper resonance . . it remains separate from God's consciousness. No human consciousness prior to Jesus could even come close to the pure love that God is. He needed to send His Son in HUMAN form with a HUMAN consciousness so that His Holy Spirit would be an eternal part of the collective HUMAN consciousness. THAT is how He is the Way (or connection) to God for us ALL . . . thereby eliminating what would otherwise have been an eternal separation from God.
.....all based on some books that a bunch of people wrote down (each one contradicting the other) over 2,000 years ago? This is arrogance on a "biblical" level, so to speak. We can't even agree on the content, or intent, of documents written 100-200 years ago. What makes you so dogmatic and secure about contradictory items written by a bunch of people 2,000 years ago?
I've got my theory: You've been brainwashed.
But such is the nature of religious thought. It isn't accepted by educated minds, it's usually instilled in children whose brains are soft, and open to "wisdom" from elders who were brainwashed themselves.
Mystic, I'm curious how you explain those who lived pre-Jesus who appear to have been more "resonant" with love/wisdom than many in the here and now?
We weren't capable (especially in more savage eras) of reaching the pure love that God is . . . but that doesn't mean we didn't have any ability to do so. After all . . . God did reach us through inspiration. Perfection even unto death is another matter entirely.
Whether or not it's a literal place of eternal torment (there's much disagreement on that), the important point revolves around punishment and that's a factor of justice. There is no justice for those who trust Christ and deny themselves earthly pleasures if there's no punishment for those who do not.
I guess I have always found this logic hard to stomach. Christians deserve special treatment simply for their belief in Christ while those who didn't believe in Christ - but may have lived wonderful lives as wonderful people deserve to be punished, perhaps for eternity, because it wouldn't be fair to the Christians otherwise? As a Christian - you need to know that all non Christians will be tormented, maybe forever, in order for you to feel that you have justice? I guess I feel that if someone was truly an enlightened individual, they wouldn't want to see anyone suffer. I know I sure don't want to see anyone suffer and I hardly think of myself as the most enlightened person around. I don't need to see other people punished to feel like I've gotten a fair deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
One thing I do find interesting is how this thread has generated far more responses than a similar, though opposite, one I started in the Christian forums. It's as if skeptics and disbelievers are more willing to talk what it would take for them to believe, than believers are to talk about what it would take for them NOT to believe.
Curious, no?
I don't think this is unusual or curious. Many atheists and agnostics believe that there is no God - or at least not the Judeo Christian God - but most of us believe that there could be a chance that we are wrong. Perhaps not wrong as in Christianity is right - but wrong as in there are things that we just don't know. Many of the Christians on the Christianity forum believe that they do know all the answers and that there is no way possible that they are wrong. Also - look at it this way - if there is a God - he could come down here and show himself and make believers out of us all. If there is no God - proving that he doesn't exist to Christians really isn't possible.
As far as the OP goes - honestly, short of God coming down and showing himself or short of some sort of personal miracle - I don't see myself believing in God or Jesus. But I also don't believe that it's important. In my opinion - if God is real and it was truly important to him for us to worship him - he would have made it much more obvious or innate. Examples would be - the word of God written across the sky for all to see every single day for all eternity. Or something like the knowledge of God and Jesus being born within us like the way we are born breathing and knowing that we are hungry. And I don't mean the way some people say that they have always sense God - I mean that the Bible would be implanted in our brains from birth. Something like that. But honestly, if there is a God - I can't wrap my head around him being some sort of egomaniac that would demand adulation and worship otherwise he will torture you FOREVER! I know that many people disagree with my thinking - but if there is a God - and he created me - then he created me to think and feel the way that I do. I can't go against everything in my entire nature - it's just not possible.
I guess I have always found this logic hard to stomach. Christians deserve special treatment simply for their belief in Christ while those who didn't believe in Christ - but may have lived wonderful lives as wonderful people deserve to be punished, perhaps for eternity, because it wouldn't be fair to the Christians otherwise? As a Christian - you need to know that all non Christians will be tormented, maybe forever, in order for you to feel that you have justice? I guess I feel that if someone was truly an enlightened individual, they wouldn't want to see anyone suffer. I know I sure don't want to see anyone suffer and I hardly think of myself as the most enlightened person around. I don't need to see other people punished to feel like I've gotten a fair deal.
This is a VERY insightful remark.
I think there's a lot of insidious "join us or die" and a longing for an "I told you so!" moment from a lot of Christians. Strikes me as incredbily un-Christ-like.
Whether or not it's a literal place of eternal torment (there's much disagreement on that), the important point revolves around punishment and that's a factor of justice. There is no justice for those who trust Christ and deny themselves earthly pleasures if there's no punishment for those who do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
I guess I have always found this logic hard to stomach. Christians deserve special treatment simply for their belief in Christ while those who didn't believe in Christ - but may have lived wonderful lives as wonderful people deserve to be punished, perhaps for eternity, because it wouldn't be fair to the Christians otherwise? As a Christian - you need to know that all non Christians will be tormented, maybe forever, in order for you to feel that you have justice? I guess I feel that if someone was truly an enlightened individual, they wouldn't want to see anyone suffer. I know I sure don't want to see anyone suffer and I hardly think of myself as the most enlightened person around. I don't need to see other people punished to feel like I've gotten a fair deal.
Dewdrop, if you're familiar with the biblical parable of the "Prodigal Son", you'll recognize that stillkit's words mirror the attitude of the elder son in the story... an attitude that is NOT condoned, so it is a bit surprising that a Christian would own up to harboring it.
.....all based on some books that a bunch of people wrote down (each one contradicting the other) over 2,000 years ago? This is arrogance on a "biblical" level, so to speak. We can't even agree on the content, or intent, of documents written 100-200 years ago. What makes you so dogmatic and secure about contradictory items written by a bunch of people 2,000 years ago?
I've got my theory: You've been brainwashed.
But such is the nature of religious thought. It isn't accepted by educated minds, it's usually instilled in children whose brains are soft, and open to "wisdom" from elders who were brainwashed themselves.
Those who are familiar with me and my views know better than to jump to such erroneous conclusions. I was atheist for over 30 years . . . no brainwashing of soft brain involved. I spent the next 40+ years trying to explain what I encountered in deep meditation using science and every other available source of knowledge with a hard and educated brain.
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