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Old 06-05-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,751,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
When we are told .."ask and thou will recieve" it is not meant to mean a new car, job, perfect health, healing , good looking babe...ect ect ect..
These represent the material, correct ?............woe
So why don't those things come under the heading of "ANYTHING"?
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:31 AM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,179,739 times
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I was recently reading a biography about a pastor in the 19th century who kept very detailed journals recording his prayer requests and the answers he received. His prayers always revolved around serving or helping others (building and maintaining orphanages, for instance) and they were often very specific requests. As I recall, he didn't voice the specific concerns to people, only in private prayer. Apparently, those prayers were often "answered" affirmatively.

It was interesting to me and his prayer journals almost seemed to be set up as a way of gathering data to provide evidence for what he believed was answered prayer. I'd have to do some research to see if the journals are still in existence or if the biographer was going on hearsay about them. And as to what exactly the data gives evidence for, I don't know. Still I found it interesting.
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 1,414,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
No question about it , this thread and opening is referring to material gain alone, and not genuine Spiritual Prayer to Our Lord. I will demonstrate with an assortment of quotes:

Huff says in opening:

If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, then believers say that is not evidence that prayer doesn't work because it may not be God's will or it is a test from God, etc.

Blue says: (number 1)

When a good Spiritual prayer is said in any inspired theme, the good believer is praying for peace and acceptance. In all consequence a full acknowledging of the just and loving Will of God to be done is understood. The believer bears with submission the most loving Will of God.

In good following of The Son of God who courageously carried his cross without force. Be it done onto to me as The Father Wish's.

The "giving it to God" is firmly attested by good believers to BE Gods Will....
Therefore your statement above saying believers will say, the result would "not be Gods will" can ONLY refer to Material self gain prayer.

Without question the inference is directed at prayer solely in request for material gain(a list of examples of material gain was provided earlier)
.................................................. .................................................
The options in the original post are meant to apply to all prayers whether they are for attributes or for material blessings. Both prayers are offered by people, regardless of whether you think they are correct for doing or not. The options in the original post work for your model of prayer as well. If you pray for peace and acceptance and you receive it, there is an option for that. If you don't receive peace and acceptance, there is an option for that. If you pray for the Father's Will to be done, and it is, there is an option for that. If you pray for the Father's Will to be done and it isn't (regardless of whether you think that could happen or not), that possibility is covered in my options just in case. As you are fully aware, there are millions of Christians who understand prayer in a bunch of different ways. I had to produce options that could cover all possibilities, including yours. And as I just showed, the options work for yours, so my post was not illogical & uneducated non-sense. It even works for your understanding of the scriptures about prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
(Number 2)

Asheville Native says in very next post:

This is where debating with idiots becomes futile, for they bring you down to their level and defeat you from experience and home court advantage.
They pray for something (healing a sick child) but also take the child to a doctor . The child recovers or dies. The prayer was answered, or some utter stupid platitude such as "god need him more than we did" is offered as the reason.

Blue Says:
Huff offers in direct reply to Ashville zero clarification or correction to above slanted overview of prayer for material gain only. Thus concedes by virtue of text that ONLY material prayer is being considered in this thread. A most clear ratification of thread theme, as well intent.

A long remark ensues with disclosed momentum to sway believers away from their Faith in God.
.................................................. .................................................. .
Again, that was Asheville's take on prayer, and my model works for it. There was no need for me to say "and my model also works for those who believe one should only pray for God's Will to be done and be blessed with courage, peace and acceptance". As much as you think your understanding of scriptures is the one right way, there are many others who think their understanding of the scriptures is the one right way. There may be some poster who criticizes me for not explicitly stated their understanding of prayer in my response to you, thereby tacitly recognizing only your understanding of prayer. My not arguing with someone or pointing out that other people believe differently is not to be understood that I share their view and am unaware of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Huff says in opening thread: (Number 3)

Basically, there is no way to falsify prayer. Well, logically, if no possible observation could show some theory is false, then no observation can convincingly show it is true. Essentially, all observations relative to prayer are meaningless in establishing whether prayer works or not. If every possible thing would support it, then how can we be impressed with any evidence that supposedly supports it. It is a rigged game.

Then Huff reports to Mystic the following:

I don't refuse to allow any evidence. I evaluate all evidence. My original post is saying that evidence of "answered prayers" is not convincing because it is non-falsifiable.

Blue says:

Spiritual prayer is not....non-falsifiable as you have wrongly fixed.

There is nothing but evidence in the millions of people who consecrate each day to God in a prayerful spirit. Gaining grace allowing for the virtue of fortitude and others including charity the good believer representing multitudes through the centuries.

Obviously not an abundance of "evidence"....but nothing but evidence. Prayer is beneficial physically , emotionally and of course Spiritually.

When this stops....you will have your evidence . As it is you have your evidence.
Huff...its almost like saying ..value in excersize is non-falsifiable. (no railroads)

Therefore since material gain in prayer is non-falsifiable in your estimation,
and Spiritual Prayer is falsifiable through solid evidence shown above....
logic shows perfect consistency with yet another vivid intent in solely referring in this thread not only to Material Prayer.....But Material Prayer only.
You said spiritual prayer is not non-falsifiable, but then offered no arguments to support that. If you think you did, I don't think you understand what non-falsifiable is. If true, you missed the entire point of the original post. If I were mean, now would be the perfect time to say to you what you said to me, "You should really know what your talking about before you wind up with your illogical & uneducated non-sense". But, I am not mean and I have learned some manners and saying that would be uncalled for. But, now perhaps you see why what you said was rude and uncalled for. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

From wiki, "Falsifiability is the logical possibility that an assertion could be shown to be false by a particular observation or physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated".

Let me use your exercise example. This statement is falsifiable, "Peddling a bicycle at the rate of 15 miles an hour will raise a person's heart rate at least 10% from their heart rate when they are at rest". For the sake of argument, let's assume that is a true statement and does in actuality apply to all people with no exceptions. It would then be a true statement, but would also be falsifiable, because if it were not true, an observation could be made of a person whose heart rate did not rise at least 10% over their resting heart rate while peddling a bicycle at the rate of 15 miles an hour. Basically the initial claim was specific enough that, if it were false there would be a way to prove it.

If it is true, the observation that could refute it would never be made, because it is true. But, simply having the ability to be falsified is viewed as a strength. A claim may be true and still be falsifiable; "All humans have red blood cells" is a true statement but remains falsifiable because we can at least imagine finding a human without red blood cells to prove this statement wrong.

The point of the original post is that if prayers weren't answered, there would be no way to prove it. The way people think about prayers, even what would appear to be unanswered prayers (i.e., not blessed with courage), can still be interpreted as answered prayers if it is seen as God's Will, and besides how could one really prove that someone wasn't blessed with courage. Basically, there is no possible way to disprove the concept of answered prayers because all possible outcomes can be seen as support for answered prayers.

Part of the theory of evolution includes the idea of common descent, that all modern animals descended from earlier ancestors we share in common. Numerous examples of potential ways to falsify common descent have been proposed by its proponents. J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what hypothetical evidence could disprove evolution, replied "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era". Richard Dawkins adds that any other modern animals, such as a hippo, would suffice. Why because if common descent is right, modern rabbits such not have existed in rock layers that are as old as the Precambrian era.

Common descent has not been falsified, but it is falsifiable because there are observations that are possible that would falsify common descent if the observations were ever made. There are no possible observations that could do the same for the idea of answered prayers.

When you have an idea that is non-falsifiable in which every imaginable observation would only serve to support your idea, then no observation is very impressive as support for the idea.

For example, if I said that fairies give you all of your thoughts. That would be non-falsifiable. The believers in this idea, might say they very fact that you have thoughts is supporting evidence for their idea. Not very impressive is it. You might point out that fMRI's show increased neural activity in certain regions of the brain whenever you have thoughts of a certain type. They'd say, yes, isn't it wonderful how the fairies give you those types of thoughts when those neurons are active? When every imaginable observation supports your thesis, then none of those observations really support it. And that is the problem with non-falsifiable ideas.

Since the idea of answered prayers is non-falsifiable, any observations that you point to as support for answered prayers isn't convincing evidence.

If you can't possibly get it wrong, then it fails to be impressive when you "get it right". You can't lose because no matter how the results of a prayer could possibly turn out, it is always called an "answered prayer". So, that is why we are not impressed with answered prayers.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Missouri
629 posts, read 714,440 times
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So we are not to take the Lords prayer as a model after all.

When Jesus said, 'Give us this day our daily bread', he didnt mean food?
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Missouri
629 posts, read 714,440 times
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George Carlin prayed to Joe Pesci, because he thought he was aguy who could get things done, and he said that actually Joe answered his prayers at about the same ratio as God did... some things happened, some didnt.


YouTube - ‪George Carlin - Religion is bull****.‬‏ Listen to him at around 7:20.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:22 PM
 
16,310 posts, read 14,793,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
So we are not to take the Lords prayer as a model after all.

When Jesus said, 'Give us this day our daily bread', he didnt mean food?
And all these ritualistic repeated prayers by rote are all asking for something, begging if you will. How sad that they never say that "I'm going to go out and do something positive today", but are always with the hand out for a handout.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:32 PM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,179,739 times
Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
So we are not to take the Lords prayer as a model after all.

When Jesus said, 'Give us this day our daily bread', he didnt mean food?

When I was a Christian, I didn't take that to mean Jesus was saying to literally ask for food. "Bread" was used symbolically by Jesus to refer to spiritual things at other times and Jesus seemed most concerned with the spiritual aspect of life, so it seemed likely that he was referring to spiritual needs in that prayer. But, if taken more literally to refer to material things, it seemed possible that it was simply an exercise in gratitude and acknowledgment of god's provision. That's how I saw it, at any rate.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:52 PM
 
912 posts, read 391,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
So why don't those things come under the heading of "ANYTHING"?
I will try to answer all posts. Seekers probably sleeping so will wait on that

Well your right, praying can be practiced for anything. The attempt at disqualification of prayer in merit is at hand. The emphasis in premise is that the end product in prayer is manipulated by the believer, there bye dis-allowing real substance in any concrete truth in a God whom would be in receipt of prayer.

In order to draw out reasonable consideration in this suggestion, the platform built its argument on prayer which is practiced in expectation of "direct interference" in the order of everyday life. Pleading with God for special consideration which is solely associated with physical human comfort in self and others.

Theres nothing abnormal or irregular in this regard, although it is with its premise in a relationship which is..active primarily and not the objective in prayer at all.

Active in a pronounced life of prayer which is undoubtedly toned in praise,
sorrow, and humility.

If the practice of prayer is under siege by
virtue of qualification in reason, The subject in prayer intent, expectations, purpose and totality in whole, will rise in true exposition .

The most popular prayer is the at the end of the day before night sleep.
Hymns are popular, formal prayers, these are all forms of.....communication
with God in prayer.( Jesus Holy Spirit and so on) Praise, recognition & regard is expressed sharing the believers experience in all life experience with God.

So your right, anything and everything would be the idea in prayer.
A good friendship. Friends with God, in a way.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,751,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post

So your right, anything and everything would be the idea in prayer.
So if I was a believer and asked for a new car, why wouldn't I get it under the promise from your Jesus that if I ask for anything in his name it will be given?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,434 posts, read 3,695,340 times
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Blue, your last post to Rafius was a word salad dressed up with some big words but said very little. You touched on hymns and praise and being an ex praise and worship leader, I know exactly how this ritual works and how it affects people, I was bloody good at it. It is just another manner of manipulation and no snake oil salesman will attempt a sermon w/o first lulling his target audience into a mood of receptiveness.

This still does not answer why prayer does not work and you are merely deflecting into a sphere of meditation which btw I did get folk to do when we went into worshiping in the spirit. It is called the power of suggestion and can be carried out by a P&W leader or can be self induced.

The fact is as I pointed out in my last post, prayer is based on a rewards program and the expectation of god actually intervening to do something for the person praying. You also have prayer warriors that may pull all nighters praying for a specific result in their church's ministry. I was involved in ALL these aspects and I personally NEVER saw any fruition of these activities. All it may have done is given the participants some placebo effect of contribution much like P&W does.

As the saying goes one active pair of hands beats one thousand hands clasped in prayer.

There is of course the lame apologetic of unanswered prayers in that god meets your need not your greed. Usually when folk plead to their invisible god to intervene, they are usually at their wits end. Life goes on and folk do what they do best to survive and usually, the coincidences that may appear to be answers to prayers are just that, coincidences. What folk fail to see is that how can god make an exception with them and simply ignore the plight of billions worldwide? The only ones that can make a difference in others lives and real people and there is no god guiding them, merely human empathy and common sense.

To feed the homeless with a soup kitchen, it takes people, money and time. All of these come from real people with a common empathetic goal. Should they stand back and simply pray, god does squat for the homeless.

A god that was supposed to have created everything and now relies on man to be the ones doing the simple charitable deeds proves to me the inherent good in mankind and the absence of any gods.

What has god done for Haiti, Japan? Many folk praying and yet there is devastation and in Japan radiation poisoning. Surely a god who created everything should have no problem fixing these minor issues up - no?
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