Why "answered prayers" will never be convincing evidence (church, Holy Spirit)
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We are dumb enough to think that because something can not be physically proven to be true, it does not mean it is false.
So you're open to the possibility that Anubis and Thor are real? Flying Spaghetti Monster? Invisible Pink Unicorn?
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I guess I am even more of an idiot because I do believe intelligent life exists beyond the earth, I accept that with out it being proven. Because I have no proof of intelligent extraterrestrial life, does that mean it does not exist?
The billions of life forms that have or have existed on this planet for billions of years provide evidence or at least a precedent that there may be life on other worlds. So far no God(s) have revealed themselves in any legitimate manner.
When we are told .."ask and thou will recieve" it is not meant to mean a new car, job, perfect health, healing , good looking babe...ect ect ect..
These represent the material, correct ?............woe
"Recieve" the grace for courage (fortitude) in virtue to live or endure life... as life.. is what it is.
You should really know what your talking about before you wind up with your illogical & uneducated non-sense.. BTW...God & "JESUS" know that courage is what really defines individuality to be progressive.....(oh better list...positive, hope, assistance regardless of danger... stability ...GUTS...
Good luck to those who do not realize courage-fortitude is an attribute and do nothing but whine about it !!!
Alright, Blue Hue and Theophane (who agrees so much with this post that he says he could not have said it better himself).
Where in the entire thread did I ever say anything about "a new car, job, perfect health, healing, good looking babe" or anything like it? Where did I specify material blessings to answered prayers?
The way the original post was written, it could include "the grace for courage in virtue". Receiving that could be the answered prayer spoken of in the original post.
So, who now doesn't know what he's talking about? No one, or perhaps you for accusing me of misunderstandings I didn't. Where now is the illogical and uneducated nonsense? There is none.
And I am not sure why you posted, "Good luck to those who do not realize courage-fortitude is an attribute and do nothing but whine about it !!!" I certainly realize that courage/fortitude is an attribute, and I haven't been whining about it.
So, Blue Hue and Theophane (who agreed with Blue Hue's post so much that he says he could not have said it better himself), you were wrong when you assumed that I was excluding attributes from possible answered prayers, you were wrong when you thought I meant only material blessings, and then you have the gall to say that I didn't know what I was talking about and that my post was illogical and uneducated nonsense, when it was you who did not understand what this thread is about.
Alright, Blue Hue and Theophane (who agrees so much with this post that he says he could not have said it better himself).
Where in the entire thread did I ever say anything about "a new car, job, perfect health, healing, good looking babe" or anything like it? Where did I specify material blessings to answered prayers?
The way the original post was written, it could include "the grace for courage in virtue". Receiving that could be the answered prayer spoken of in the original post.
So, who now doesn't know what he's talking about? No one, or perhaps you for accusing me of misunderstandings I didn't. Where now is the illogical and uneducated nonsense? There is none.
And I am not sure why you posted, "Good luck to those who do not realize courage-fortitude is an attribute and do nothing but whine about it !!!" I certainly realize that courage/fortitude is an attribute, and I haven't been whining about it.
So, Blue Hue and Theophane (who agreed with Blue Hue's post so much that he says he could not have said it better himself), you were wrong when you assumed that I was excluding attributes from possible answered prayers, you were wrong when you thought I meant only material blessings, and then you have the gall to say that I didn't know what I was talking about and that my post was illogical and uneducated nonsense, when it was you who did not understand what this thread is about.
No question about it , this thread and opening is referring to material gain alone, and not genuine Spiritual Prayer to Our Lord. I will demonstrate with an assortment of quotes:
Huff says in opening:
If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, then believers say that is not evidence that prayer doesn't work because it may not be God's will or it is a test from God, etc.
Blue says: (number 1)
When a good Spiritual prayer is said in any inspired theme, the good believer is praying for peace and acceptance. In all consequence a full acknowledging of the just and loving Will of God to be done is understood. The believer bears with submission the most loving Will of God.
In good following of The Son of God who courageously carried his cross without force. Be it done onto to me as The Father Wish's.
The "giving it to God" is firmly attested by good believers to BE Gods Will....
Therefore your statement above saying believers will say, the result would "not be Gods will" can ONLY refer to Material self gain prayer.
Without question the inference is directed at prayer solely in request for material gain(a list of examples of material gain was provided earlier)
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(Number 2)
Asheville Native says in very next post:
This is where debating with idiots becomes futile, for they bring you down to their level and defeat you from experience and home court advantage.
They pray for something (healing a sick child) but also take the child to a doctor . The child recovers or dies. The prayer was answered, or some utter stupid platitude such as "god need him more than we did" is offered as the reason.
Blue Says:
Huff offers in direct reply to Ashville zero clarification or correction to above slanted overview of prayer for material gain only. Thus concedes by virtue of text that ONLY material prayer is being considered in this thread. A most clear ratification of thread theme, as well intent.
A long remark ensues with disclosed momentum to sway believers away from their Faith in God.
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Huff says in opening thread: (Number 3)
Basically, there is no way to falsify prayer. Well, logically, if no possible observation could show some theory is false, then no observation can convincingly show it is true. Essentially, all observations relative to prayer are meaningless in establishing whether prayer works or not. If every possible thing would support it, then how can we be impressed with any evidence that supposedly supports it. It is a rigged game.
Then Huff reports to Mystic the following:
I don't refuse to allow any evidence. I evaluate all evidence. My original post is saying that evidence of "answered prayers" is not convincing because it is non-falsifiable.
Blue says:
Spiritual prayer is not....non-falsifiable as you have wrongly fixed.
There is nothing but evidence in the millions of people who consecrate each day to God in a prayerful spirit. Gaining grace allowing for the virtue of fortitude and others including charity the good believer representing multitudes through the centuries.
Obviously not an abundance of "evidence"....but nothing but evidence. Prayer is beneficial physically , emotionally and of course Spiritually.
When this stops....you will have your evidence . As it is you have your evidence.
Huff...its almost like saying ..value in excersize is non-falsifiable. (no railroads)
Therefore since material gain in prayer is non-falsifiable in your estimation,
and Spiritual Prayer is falsifiable through solid evidence shown above....
logic shows perfect consistency with yet another vivid intent in solely referring in this thread not only to Material Prayer.....But Material Prayer only.
This IMO is merely a cop out as to why prayer does not work.
The disciples asked jesus to teach them how to pray and gives them a model prayer. It has a built in apologetic allowing jesus an out of asking for anything in his name and he will do it in that THY WILL BE DONE.
Thus prayer unanswered is b/c it is not the will of the father and thus the folk will continue to play the prayer lotto hoping to get lucky.
To not see this as anything other than fanciful thinking IMO is ludicrous. You now redefine prayer as spiritual which has absolutely no meaning to anyone but you. It falls into the same disclaimer as mentioned above.
This IMO is merely a lame attempt to put your own spin on something akin to meditation. Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive sounds like a pretty positive assertion, there does not seem to be a different recipe no matter how you want to cherry pick your truths. The father knowing of the needs of man because no sparrow falls to the ground w/o him micromanaging it yet one must seek the kingdom first and then all these things shall be added.
Massive circular logic as the statistics show that unbelievers make it on their own efforts quite alright.
In my 30 years as an xian, prayer NEVER worked but then I guess you woos will say I was never really a true xian(tm)
Prayer is an exercise in futility as if the bible is to be believed, your destination is predetermined and even for one as me who lost their faith, that too is because he willed it? If god were real, for someone to have created such a huge multiverse, dunno how he has the time to answer and tend to his USA creation while millions worldwide starve.
I gave up on god b/c he does not exist outside of my thoughts and mental processes, when I dissed IT, the voices in my head stopped.
This IMO is merely a cop out as to why prayer does not work.
The disciples asked jesus to teach them how to pray and gives them a model prayer. It has a built in apologetic allowing jesus an out of asking for anything in his name and he will do it in that THY WILL BE DONE.
Thus prayer unanswered is b/c it is not the will of the father and thus the folk will continue to play the prayer lotto hoping to get lucky.
To not see this as anything other than fanciful thinking IMO is ludicrous. You now redefine prayer as spiritual which has absolutely no meaning to anyone but you. It falls into the same disclaimer as mentioned above.
This IMO is merely a lame attempt to put your own spin on something akin to meditation. Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive sounds like a pretty positive assertion, there does not seem to be a different recipe no matter how you want to cherry pick your truths. The father knowing of the needs of man because no sparrow falls to the ground w/o him micromanaging it yet one must seek the kingdom first and then all these things shall be added.
Massive circular logic as the statistics show that unbelievers make it on their own efforts quite alright.
In my 30 years as an xian, prayer NEVER worked but then I guess you woos will say I was never really a true xian(tm)
Prayer is an exercise in futility as if the bible is to be believed, your destination is predetermined and even for one as me who lost their faith, that too is because he willed it? If god were real, for someone to have created such a huge multiverse, dunno how he has the time to answer and tend to his USA creation while millions worldwide starve.
I gave up on god b/c he does not exist outside of my thoughts and mental processes, when I dissed IT, the voices in my head stopped.
Christian Prayer is 100% Spiritual. If somebody trys to say a person can pray to God for the material...(money, big house, car, health, nose job, sexy girlfriend, win at poker...its ALL material and not at all the idea in saying prayers.....just recite or find a noteworthy accepted Christian Prayer which directly requests material gain.....its not a cop out, its how it is.. and
everybody knows it. no doubt about it...When a little toddler breaks his leg the family prays..IN... the situation, not for the leg to be miraculously un-broken.
You guys are barking up the WRONG tree. No doubt about it
Christian Prayer is 100% Spiritual. If somebody trys to say a person can pray to God for the material...(money, big house, car, health, nose job, sexy girlfriend, win at poker...its ALL material and not at all the idea in saying prayers.....just recite or find a noteworthy accepted Christian Prayer which directly requests material gain.....its not a cop out, its how it is.. and
No it is still a cop out as folk generally get the stuff they need and want through rewards for work which enables them to purchase whatever their hearts desire, IOW by their own efforts.
By your premise, a little black kid in Africa is wasting its time praying for a next meal or drink of water esp. in times of famine.
The whole concept of christianity is rewards based be it in the hereafter in mansions with gold paved streets or the here and now, which the bible does seem to indicate. By relegating these promises to a "spiritual" concept, you inadvertently admit prayer as laid out in the bible does not work. But that is what we expect of theists that cannot provide any substantial proof of there even being a god or whether IT listens or cares about humanity as a whole.
So what exactly do you ask for in the "spiritual realm" that makes your life any better than mine or others here?
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everybody knows it. no doubt about it...When a little toddler breaks his leg the family prays..IN... the situation, not for the leg to be miraculously un-broken.
You guys are barking up the WRONG tree. No doubt about it
No, we are not barking up any tree, merely taking what you lot espouse and showing you IT DOES NOT WORK.
It has already been said here that in the case of crisis or life threatening ailments, the medical profession which IS SECULAR is approached by (mostly) all believers. Hence, their faith in this regard is in SCIENCE and not myth as science does seem to have a better track record for healing broken bones and even some deadly diseases whereas your god is oblivious to the basic needs of his followers in spite of the promises espoused by his alleged son jesus.
Atheists may be fatalists but theists are the ones, more than others, trying to hold onto this frail life when by all accounts espoused by them, paradise awaits.
Were the folk anywhere in Africa where there is famine were to pray and manna was seen falling from heaven, water gushing out the sands, then MAYBE your "evidence" of prayer working would bear credence.
But then again, christianity like islam is a death cult where the hereafter is more important than here and now. I am sure you have all the creature comforts of a home and all the toys that make your life bearable to sit there and try and tell the rest of the world, "my prayers" work.
Of course we atheists know why there is famine in Africa. It was the colonialists that came with their delusions of heaven and sold this myth to a primitive superstitious folk who (were doing pretty OK for themselves) in exchange for their lands and mineral wealth. Hence the descendants of these African hunter gatherers no longer have the skills to do what they were at one with in nature before the white man and his god pitched up.
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