Anybody think that certain people of different beliefs actually believe the exact same thing and don't realize it? (souls, Jehovah)
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If people are to understand eachother, I think it would be necessary to understand exactly what someone is talking about when they say they are part of a given group.
I am thinking that dictionary definitions are not enough, in that cultural definitions tend to mutate rapidly. I think that the primary definition of the group someone belongs to is what they call themselves, regardless of the meaning.
I think there are two kinds of belief. One, I will call logic. Logic results from information taken through the senses and logical throught. There are no emotions which are part of logic. Logic is the computer-like part of thought. From the logical perspective, evidence for religion would be based entirely on things we sense, feel, or conclude through logical thought. This type of belief will deal only with what one believes to be most likely to be true or untrue, not what one believes to be just, or most beneficial. Logic is unbiased and is not a choice, unless the thinker specifically chooses what information they will pay attention to.
Another type of belief is just believing. I will call this the emotional belief. Emotions do not necessarily have anything to do with logic. They may have to do with what someone believes is right. They may have to do with what feels is right. They may have to do with what one merely knows is right.
One thing I've noticed is that the religious tend to view the emotional belief as the definition of belief. The non-religious tend to view logic as the definition of belief.
On this basis, I would think it would be understandible if someone both believes as does not believe in something at once.
Potential Cultural definitions of various thought processes -
agnosticism - agnostics can be people who believe nothing can be proven. They can be people who believe people other than themselves might be able to prove things, but they themselves cannot. Agnosticism may be either an emotional or logical lack of belief in provablility. An agnostic may believe that nothing can be proven, so why should they make a choice? An agnostic may believe that some things can be proven, but there isn't currently enough evidence for them to believe in anything, so why should they make a choice? An agnostic may may even remain perpetually undecided, or switching back and forth between believing in a given religion and not, but think that calling themselves a different belief every few minutes would be so confusing that they might as well call themselves agnostic to be simple. An agnostic may have already made an emotional choice about the religion they believe in, but believe that their lack of logical belief means that aren't entirely sure their religion is true, and that they should call themselve agnostic and not ever state they are a member of the religion they believe in. Agnostics may also have a logical belief in a given religion, buy may lack an emotional belief, thereby never stating themselves as being a member of the religion they believe in logically based on evidence and probability.
Religious agnostic - I would think that a religious agnostic must emotionally believe in their religion, and believe themselves to be a genuine member of that religion, but to either not logically believe in their religion, or to logically believe in their religion but hypothetically question it.
Atheist - An atheist can range from someone who believes, beyond a shadow of a doubt emotionally and logically, that there is no God, to someone who believes logically that there is a 99% logical chance of God existing, but still believes they do not believe in God. An athiest can also be someone who believes emotionally in God, but thinks there is a logical improbability of God existing, and has no logical belief in God, and therefore that they shouldn't tell anyone they believe in God, so long as they call themself an athiest.
Religious - this depends entirely upon the religion.
You might consider revising your definition of atheist a little. Simply put, atheists do not believe in a higher power, no afterlife, no reincarnation, zip, zilch, nada. This life is the alpha and omega of our existence.
If people are to understand eachother, I think it would be necessary to understand exactly what someone is talking about when they say they are part of a given group.
Anyone have any comments?
Yes, I totally agree. Understanding each other will definitely help.
You might consider revising your definition of atheist a little. Simply put, atheists do not believe in a higher power, no afterlife, no reincarnation, zip, zilch, nada. This life is the alpha and omega of our existence.
I would think that some atheists believe in an afterlife. None of these dictionary definitions I found say anything about an afterlife, only a lack of a belief in God. Atheism isn't traditionally passed on to descendants so much as individuals deciding to become atheists, at least not as much as religions are passed onto descendants, so I would think that a lot of atheists get their definition from the dictionary.
I called myself agnostic before a few days ago, but then I listened to an online program declaring that it was unnecessary for anyone to call themself agnostic, which seemed to make sense. http://revision3.com/pennpoint/agnosticssuck
Maybe I should go back before the atheists kick me out of your club. I'm not sure I fit in here. You folks are great, but you're a little too sane for my tastes. I miss my fantasy afterlife, which I have zero evidence for, which changes based on my mood, but that I believe in to make myself feel better. No, I don't believe there's anything morally wrong with this, so long as I remember with part of my brain that it is a fantasy (but not unproven, just improbable, that's the important part).
The idea of an afterlife should IMO be one that we do not have to work for. What that may be is anyone's guess but the afterlife that xians espouse is the least desirable.
It would be nice (for awhile) to say hello to old friends and family but at the end of the day how long would you really need? I cannot imagine an eternity doing this neither can I imagine a 24/7 church service singing hallelujahs nor a golden mansion etc.
When one is young, the idea seems attainable but as you get older, the fear of death wanes and you accept your mortality.
If there is something beyond this realm, I would like to opt out, oblivion of which I will not be aware of, is more realistic.
The problem is the whole premise of christianity is based on a death cult mentality and instilled into youth at a very young age. Were folk simply to give age appropriate education as to the cycle of life, kids would not grow up to be fearful of an afterlife.
The way religion works is to convince you that there is an afterlife, and then to make you work your Moderator cut: inappropriate off off in this real and only life to attain the afterlife. Pretty stupid if you want my opinion. But seeing man has been duped by these myths for over 2000 years, they, the religious leaders, are not going to be honest with you anytime soon.
The idea of an afterlife should IMO be one that we do not have to work for. What that may be is anyone's guess but the afterlife that xians espouse is the least desirable.
It would be nice (for awhile) to say hello to old friends and family but at the end of the day how long would you really need? I cannot imagine an eternity doing this neither can I imagine a 24/7 church service singing hallelujahs nor a golden mansion etc.
When one is young, the idea seems attainable but as you get older, the fear of death wanes and you accept your mortality.
If there is something beyond this realm, I would like to opt out, oblivion of which I will not be aware of, is more realistic.
The problem is the whole premise of christianity is based on a death cult mentality and instilled into youth at a very young age. Were folk simply to give age appropriate education as to the cycle of life, kids would not grow up to be fearful of an afterlife.
The way religion works is to convince you that there is an afterlife, and then to make you work your Moderator cut: inappropriate off off in this real and only life to attain the afterlife. Pretty stupid if you want my opinion. But seeing man has been duped by these myths for over 2000 years, they, the religious leaders, are not going to be honest with you anytime soon.
I can agree with the spirit of this post, Seeker . . . but my still imperfect love at times relishes in the knowledge (truth for me) that these bastages will "reap what they have sown" in the next stage. It should be particularly "burdensome" given the huge number of souls they must account for. Of course . . . hell and ET are nonsense . . . but Annihilation would be too good for them, IMO.
Definitely. I realized that some of my beliefs line up with beliefs specific to Mormonism, but I am far from being a Mormon, lol. But through discussion and debate on CD I realized that I actually have some things in common with Mormons--mainly the way I view the relationship between our individuals souls and the Creator. I believe our souls are all like droplets of God, and that in a way we are the sons and daughters of God, but that we all have a bit of God inside us, too. I don't believe in all the Joseph Smith stuff but the fact that I have anything in common with a Mormon came as a total surprise to me.
Another example: I believe the same as the Jehovah's Wintesses in that I believe that when bad things happen, it's usually our fault or just an accident--not God (or Jehovah's) willful attempt to harm us. Like the JW's, I believe God's intentions are NEVER to harm us, and any harmful forces are either a result of our own decisions or a result of something other than God (such as an accident, or negative influence). Again, though, I positively don't believe Armageddon is around the corner but I was surprised to find that I had anything in common at all with the JW's.
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