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Anyways, reform jews are more christianized then anything else. They consider chanukah the most important holiday, they arbitarily pick and choose what's important to follow. Now don't get me wrong - reformed judaism does its job at being better diplomats then orthodox jews but other then that, it's more social then religious. For example, how many people in your reformed synoguage go to shul on shabbas? How many go on Rosh Hashannah or Yom Kippur? Compare that to the orthodox where the numbers are vertually identical.
Umm... first, I don't consider Chanukah to be the most important holiday, and I did attend shul on Yom Kippur AND Rosh Hashana this year - in addition to many Shabbeses. Yes, we are more social than religious in many ways, and don't observe all laws of the Torah... but please, we are certainly not "Christianized!" No offense to the Christians here, LOL.
Do Reform Jews have a particular stance on homosexuality?
Yes, our stance is that they are welcomed, and will not be judged or shunned by the Reform community... from the Reform Judaism website (www.rj.org): (broken link)
"Reform Jews are also committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue life as well as society at large."
As I've mentioned, my Temple does have a lesbian Rabbi, and the Synagogue is very active in gay rights here in SF... they often appear at the Gay Pride celebrations, to speak on behalf of the Reform Jewish community in San Francisco (alongside a Reverend or Minister from a local church). This is one reason I continue to attend Reform Synagogues, even though I've considered following a more traditional sect. In my heart and soul, I just can't belong to anything that would condemn my loved ones, simply because they're gay. Not that all traditional Synagogues do, but many of them aren't "gay-friendly" in comparison to the Reform temples.
For me, to be completely honest, the jury is still out with this issue. I do, however, believe that being gay is NOT a choice and is the result of factors beyond the person's control. I therefore find it difficult to believe God would condemn someone for something they were born into, and I don't buy the argument that this sin is like any other--it is definately different, IMO.
Some Christians try to equate homosexuality with, say, bestiality or child predators, saying that they are born with an unnatural desire and they must fight it. EW!!! How distasteful.
Homo=2 consenting adults.
Bestiality or child predator=the abuse against an animal, or a child.
No dice!
Also, I don't believe there are biological factors that cause the desire for animal or child sex. Rather, it is the result of childhood abuse themselves, or of an unbalanced and sick mind. God does not make people to be born with these desires, IMO, and it is blasphemous to say so.
Christian homosexuals are asked to deny a VERY large part of the human experience: intimacy, both sexual and non, with someone who they share more than friendship-love with. They are in fact told to deny this urge and to fake it, more or less, with someone of the opposite sex.
Also, the "sin" of homosexuality has also been compared to someone wanting to drink, or do drugs, or whatever. But having an intimate relationship with another human being can hardly be compared with something as obviously damaging as alcholism, or drugs, IMO.
Anywho, that's my 2 cents and that's what it's worth, probably.
First of all, it's not Christians who equate homosexuality with beastiality, child rape, murder, or whatever else. God in His Word, links them together. Actually, God makes no mention of child rape. He doesn't have too. All rape is condemned in the Bible--child, adult, whatever. Also, God condemns fornication which is premarital sex. And rape is primarily a fornicating act, unless you rape your wife. Then it's stealing and being abusive and not doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you. He also condemns adultery, i.e. cheating.
Another thing. No where in the Bible does God use the phrase or terms "consenting adults!" According to God, it is just as wrong for a 30 year old man to have premarital sex with a 13 year old girl as it is for a 30 year old man to have premarital sex with a woman his own age! God makes absolutely no distinctions. He simply says don't do it! Most of us however have broken that commandment. I'm not here to pass judgement, just reveal the facts. So in God's mind, there's no difference in a 30 year old having sex with a 13 year old outside marriage and a 30 year old having sex with a 30 year old outside marriage! In century's past, most girls around the world were eligible for marriage at 13. And many times it was with an older man! Now, are we all prepared to declare our ancestors child molestors and statutory rapists!? I don't think so! Today, in America, if a 30 year old man courts and respectfully earns the parents trust of a young woman ready for marriage at 13 and her parents consent, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I challenge anybody to prove the contrary! How do we know God didn't bring them together in the first place?! But again, God never made an allowance for "consenting adults." Consenting adults" is a human invention and holds no merrit with the Almighty, who's laws supercede man's petty, schmarmy laws. If we all obeyed God's word there wouldn't be a problem. But people don't. Homosexuality is one of them and it is equal to beastiality, fornication, adultery, and such. As a matter of fact, homosexuality is both homosexuality and fornication. Homosexuality is considered an abomination to God. Well, gays today want to get married. God, however, will never recognize that marriage so it will also be forever an abomination-forication.
Look people, we all have urges and feelings and emotions, but that don't mean we are supposed to live by them. But we all live by our feelings sometimes. I know I have, so I'm not here to condemn anyone! I'm just calling it like it is! If you feel like killing somebody do you always rush out and do it?! If you see a pretty woman or man, do you always rush out and cheat on your spouse with them?! Of course not. You exercise what's called restraint! You bridle your feelings and emotions or at least you're supposed to. The same holds true for gay feelings. Just because you have those feelings don't mean you're supposed to act on them impulsively! We all possess that magic ingredient called "choice!" We're not robots programmed to do things from birth!
God calls it unnatural and an abomination. Men have male parts and women have female parts. Like plugs and sockets, hose pipes and spiggets. It's nature. They belong together and fit together naturally. It's not natural for people to crave the same sex! Modern science has in the past said it's genetic, but who created our genetics? God! The reason so much sin is in the world today is because God emphatically states in the Bible that in the last days, people will follow after their own lusts being enticed. Mankind will do what's right in his own eyes. God will send a strong delusion that people will believe a lie. God will give us over to a reprobate mind. These things are evident today. Just look around the world and watch the news! Satan is going to pour it on harder, faster, and more intensely as the final days approach! However, Satan can't force us to do anything. We still have choice.
So yes! Homosexuality is equated with beastiality, fornication, adultery, and idolatry. You say homosexuality is different. Well, they're all different! Everything is different in some way. But different is no excuse for allowing certain behavior! And just for the record, just because something doesn't immediately stick out as evil. Just because something doesn't seemingly appear harmful. Just because something doesn't seem disgusting, hideous, or grotesque, does not mean for one second that it's okay! Evil is not necessarily Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Voorheez! It doesn't have to beat, stab, shoot, bite, claw, tear, rip, gut, and slaughter to be evil! Most of the time evil and Satan attack humanity very subtley! When Satan tempted Eve he didn't come at her like a mighty dragon monster belching fire, and gnashing a saliva-dripping, fanged mouth! He came at her as a beautiful serpent, speaking softly and tenderly. He appealed to Eve's senses in a gentle, caring way. He planted doubt in her mind. The way he tempted Eve is how he tempts us today, not Godzilla stomping Tokyo, but a sweet puppy at the door whimpering and wanting warmth and food! And most of the time people let him in. Well, I've said a mouthfull. Much abliged for y'alls time.
Umm... first, I don't consider Chanukah to be the most important holiday, and I did attend shul on Yom Kippur AND Rosh Hashana this year - in addition to many Shabbeses. Yes, we are more social than religious in many ways, and don't observe all laws of the Torah... but please, we are certainly not "Christianized!" No offense to the Christians here, LOL.
What about the rest of the congregation? Moderator cut: insulting I think its insulting when reformed jewish women don't understand why orthodox men don't shake their hand.
It's obvious you don't fall into this broad generalization but do you at least see my point of view?
Last edited by Alpha8207; 10-26-2007 at 03:02 PM..
this is exactly why I now believe people can be born that way, several guys I knew from school were so feminine in school, I mean from pre-school on up, and I saw one of them the other day, and they were indeed Gay. Id have to agree with Kay Kay on the decision to practice vs not practicing..but thats not really my decision though.
Just because a toddler or a little grade schooler appears different or efiminate does not mean they're going to be gay! There's a lot that aren't, and then there's a lot of normal, straight acting boys that grow up to be gay. Besides, you don't know what influences these efiminate kids are getting at home. You may think you do, but families can fool just about everybody, even other members of their family! Kids are born and that's it. They develop their personality and lifestyles depending on how they're brought up and who they hang around. In other words, what they absorb into their minds through the 5 senses of touch, sight, smell, hear, and taste! The Bible never allows for being born a certain way or blaming inheritance traits for personal acts! It's up to parents to make sure their boys act like boys and grow up to be God-fearing men, and for girls to grow up to be God-fearing women! I for one wouldn't allow a son of mine to start acting all girlie and efiminate! That would be nipped in the bud very quickly and firmly! But then again, like I said, how do any of us know what goes on in a house behind closed doors?! You may think you know a family, but things ain't always what they appear! But, if you're going to blame being gay on genes, then you might as well blame beastiality, rape, child molestation, and everything on genes. "He's a compulsive liar because it's written in his genes!" "She's cheats on tests all the time because it's in her genes!" This is ridiculous! The only thing that's born into us is the sin nature we all possess! It's up to us how it's used or not used!
What about the rest of the congregation? Moderator cut: insulting but I think its insulting when reformed jewish women don't understand why orthodox men don't shake their hand.
It's obvious you don't fall into this broad generalization but do you at least see my point of view?
I would call them different... and sometimes less educated on Jewish law. What about people like my mother, who was given an Orthodox upbringing but is now Reform? I know many people like that, they just chose to live their lives differently.
Last edited by Alpha8207; 10-26-2007 at 03:05 PM..
Reason: edited out insulting remarks and orphaned text
It is a form of arrogance to judge changes in religion....In fact, it is what I call progressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Y'honatan
What about the rest of the congregation? Moderator cut: insulting I think its insulting when reformed jewish women don't understand why orthodox men don't shake their hand.
It's obvious you don't fall into this broad generalization but do you at least see my point of view?
Last edited by Alpha8207; 10-26-2007 at 03:15 PM..
Reason: edited insulting portion of quoted post and subsequent orphaned text
Just because a toddler or a little grade schooler appears different or efiminate does not mean they're going to be gay! There's a lot that aren't, and then there's a lot of normal, straight acting boys that grow up to be gay. Besides, you don't know what influences these efiminate kids are getting at home. You may think you do, but families can fool just about everybody, even other members of their family! Kids are born and that's it. They develop their personality and lifestyles depending on how they're brought up and who they hang around. In other words, what they absorb into their minds through the 5 senses of touch, sight, smell, hear, and taste! The Bible never allows for being born a certain way or blaming inheritance traits for personal acts! It's up to parents to make sure their boys act like boys and grow up to be God-fearing men, and for girls to grow up to be God-fearing women! I for one wouldn't allow a son of mine to start acting all girlie and efiminate! That would be nipped in the bud very quickly and firmly! But then again, like I said, how do any of us know what goes on in a house behind closed doors?! You may think you know a family, but things ain't always what they appear! But, if you're going to blame being gay on genes, then you might as well blame beastiality, rape, child molestation, and everything on genes. "He's a compulsive liar because it's written in his genes!" "She's cheats on tests all the time because it's in her genes!" This is ridiculous! The only thing that's born into us is the sin nature we all possess! It's up to us how it's used or not used!
What ever happened to unconditional love, and just allowing your child to grow up however is comfortable for them? As long as they're not exhibiting dangerous behavior, I don't see why you'd have to interfere... and who determines what is "feminine" or "masculine" anyway? I think man & society did that, not God. I'm a woman, and I have a sister and brother - all three of us shared "boy & girl" toys, and it didn't cause any confusion about our sexualities (we're all straight, fyi). People are either gay or they aren't... most are probably born that way, and some show signs at a young age, while others don't. Just like with the rest of the world, we can't make sweeping generalizations in either direction.
P.S. I know many gay people who were raised in Christian homes, and I'm sure their parents also tried to "nip it in the bud" (them acting a certain way)... didn't work!!
If the Bible is so clear and straightforward on this subject, why the debate?
In fact, if the Bible was clear on ANY subject, why the multitude of differences within Christianity? Why the Protestant reformation? Why the schism between the Roman Catholics and Orthodox? Why do some think baptism is by immersion, while others say it's by sprinkling? Why do we adhere to the OT laws when Paul in the NT testament told us we aren't saved by keeping the laws? Why so much harping on homosexuality, yet not a peep about eating shellfish, wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics, or planting two kinds of seed in one field? Why do we allow women to be pastors of churches? Why do we not pluck out our eyes if they cause us to sin?
Do ANY of us really adhere to the Bible literally, the way we claim to? Or are we just a bunch of hypocrites?
You make some outstanding points. I will say this. It's all about interpretation that forms a religious doctrine all around it. I never could understand why some christian religions (Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormans) to name two off hand have their own translation of the bible. They have practically rewritten parts of the bible to support their religious bias against traditional church teachings. As a result they have to take scripture OUT OF CONTEXT, to fit their false doctrines. Perfect example is Colossians 1:15. Is Jesus a created being or is he preeminent? That verse alone is one of the most controversial ones in the bible, yet people have based their entire doctrine around that one verse, and try to explain away the obvious about Him by taking other Scriptures out of context.
What is so scary is how we become divided over some of the most trivial issues that don't have anything to do with your relationship with God. The Baptist church that I am a member of follows the example of baptism by immersion because Jesus was baptized in that way. Since Jesus was immersed in the water literally, then we believe that's how you should be baptized. However, since the bible doesn't give any clear directions on baptism, baptism by sprinkling (in my opinion) is an option that I don't think we should be divided.
Regarding the LAw, Paul said that the law was our tutor to show us how to live right according to God. When Jesus came into the world, the law was abolished because, no matter how much we tried to live by the law, we would fail at it daily, so because Jesus paid the price for all of our sins, and once a person accepted him as their Lord and Savior, his sins was totally wiped clean--erased. He is now justified unto God. He can now walk in a newness of life, not being perfect, but being a new born again person in Christ and growing toward sanctification.
Paul warned all believers that in the LAST DAYs there will be wolves in sheep clothes who will deceive even the elect. What does that mean? Many people just sadly go by what their Rabbi, Pastor, or church leaders tell them to believe and figure that these people in the position of church leadership must know what they are talking about in terms of biblical interpretation because why would they deceive their flock. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans exmained the Scriptures daily to see what the beginning church leaders were teaching them. Unfortunately today, many people of all faiths don't read the bible dilligently. Most christians today couldn't defend what they believed if their lives literally depended on it. My pastor asked our congregation that same question about a month ago, and I was totally shocked when many didn't raise their hand when the question was asked.
All I can say is not to trust anyone, read the bible for yourself, get a good STrong's Concordance and an amplied bible, and see what the original words that were written mean for yourself. Then when you have a discussion about any biblical topic, you can reason from Scriptures to help others understand why you have the point of view that you have regarding any biblical topic.
I do believe that if all of us seek the truth, we will find it, and God won't fail us.
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Yes, we are more social than religious in many ways, and don't observe all laws of the Torah... but please, we are certainly not "Christianized!" No offense to the Christians here, LOL. 
The Great Divide
