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Old 03-30-2008, 11:11 PM
Location: Earth
3,797 posts, read 4,046,391 times
Reputation: 2480
Originally Posted by CometVoyager View Post
It appears to me, that one of the last true bastions of what is good and genuine about America still resides within American Mormon culture, beliefs and teachings. I am not a Mormon but I do believe our country would significantly benefit from the examples of how main stream Mormons live today in America.
I don't totally agree, but there are some very good parts of the mormon culture that are very nice.

Old 03-31-2008, 05:01 AM
178 posts, read 204,109 times
Reputation: 40
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Yes, there is much more that we agree upon then disagree. It's just that in order for me to seriously read the the Book of Mormon, I would have to be convinced of two things:

(1) That the teachings of Joseph Smith are not contradictory to past revelation (i.e. the Old and New Testaments).
They aren't, though they are contradictory to some of what we believe to be false or incomplete interpretations of some of these revelations.

(2) That such a great prophet to have added new scriptures and bring the final word of truth (even after Jesus himself), would surely be prophesied...I would need to see reasonable testimony in the Scriptures concerning Joseph Smith.
9th article of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

Most of what has been revealed through Joseph Smith we believe was already known in previous eras. 1 and 2 above is based on the assumption that the Bible is complete and inerrant. We believe the Bible to be correct as far as it is translated correctly. However, you must ask yourself, does the Bible contain everything God ever said? Christ was with his disciples for 40 days after His resurrection. Surely, He must have taught them many great and important truths... where is the record of this? Clearly the Old Testament prophecies of Christ as well... however, not once does it mention His name. Some may dismiss this. However, Cyrus, one of the ancient kings instrumental in helping the Jews return to Jerusalem anciently from Babylon was prophesied of BY NAME by Isaiah long before his birth... why not Christ?? Furthermore, consider Moses, though there may be some passages of scripture in the OT which may in a general way prophesy of him, prior to his arrival, there are certainly no smoking guns, at least not in our current OT. However, the book of Acts records that Moses was surprised that his brethren did not realize that he would be their "deliverer." Also, all of the boys of his age were slaughtered by pharoh. The bible states this as primarily a population control measure... why at this exact time then? Could it be that phraoh was aware of prophesies not contained in our current OT which did in fact speak more specifically of Moses prior to his birth?

We know that Jesus' is the only name whereby we may be saved. This being true... does it then make sense that for 4000 years mankind did not know this name... if indeed the gospel as taught in the NT is consistent with the love and character of God.

In fact, the we believe the name of Jesus was known by many prior to His birth. There were also powerful prophecies of not only Him but Moses, Joseph Smith and other great prophets by name in existance at one point. We also believe that there have been other truths revealed more clearly in the past in ancient Israel which are not in the current day Bible. What is now in the canon (or various canons) of the Bible has come to us through the filter of a Jewish apostacy (approx 400 B.C. until birth of Christ), as well as a Christian apostasy (started a few years after Christ's resurrection). It is correct as far as it is translated correctly, but it is certainly not complete. The Bible itself testifies of this and lists MANY books of prophecy of which we no longer have record. Num 21:14, Josh 10:13, 2Sam 1:18, 1Kgs 11:41, 1Chr 29:29, 2Chr 9:29, 12:15, 13:22, 20:34, 33:19 are all passages which attest to this. There are more passages as well: An epistle of Paul earlier than 1Cor (1Cor 5:9), earlier epistle to Ephesians Eph 3:3, an epistle to Church at Laodicea Col 4:16, and prophecies of Enoch not in Bible but known to Jude (Jude 1:14). Matthew's reference to Jesus as a Nazarene Matt 2:23... not in the O.T. As already mentioned, where is the record of what Christ taught for 40 days after His resurrection as well? Clearly, to base ones entire belief system on the assumption that the Bible is complete and that God has not revealed anything else nor will He I think to be a dangerous assumption, especially when the Bible itself does not teach this assumption to be true... Rather this assumption has come to be taught in "main stream Christianity" because modern day-ministers know that they are not receiving scriptural revelation... therefore God must not now be talking, right?...

I would urge you to at least keep an open mind.
Old 03-31-2008, 05:13 AM
178 posts, read 204,109 times
Reputation: 40
"They shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
D&C, 132:19,20
This passage in no way negates the position and power of God the Father nor of His Son Jesus Christ. There is in no way a desire or plan to replace God as Lucifer desired to do (and was cast out of heaven for).

Christ stated that he only did that which He saw the Father do (John 5:19). He has invited us to follow Him and to do likewise (John 14:12). As Christ is One with God (in purpose, as already detailed in a prior post), He prayed for us to Become One with Him, and thus by inheritance also One with God, maturing spiritually as a Child of GOD just as children mature here on earth to adulthood. (John 17: 21-23, also Romans 8:16-18. Revelation 3:4-5, 21. These other references also lend credence to this concept: Ps 82:6, Matt 5:48, Acts 17:29, 2Cor 3:18, Gen 3:22, Eph 4:13 and 1Jn 3:2).

Study all of these references listed... main stream Chrisitianity tends to dismiss them, though within them are contained some of the most profound manifestations of the Love of God.

This is not to say that we believe we will every replace God, or take His place. This will never be the sake. Such was what Lucifer desired from the beginning and such is wrong.

Do not be decieved. The gospel of Mormonism is no gospel at all. It's salvation based on works.

Again, you do not fully understand our beliefs... Will we be judged by our works, yes. The Bible is clear regarding this (Rev 20:12). However, will we be saved by our works... Absolutely not.

1Cor 15:10 makes it clear that Paul considered good works to be manifestations of God's grace. Clearly then, those in whom grace is truly active will have good works (or the works of Christ). They will be following Him. If such works are not manifest, then they haven't been "saved." Despite how many times they may profess His name. God works are not ones' own but the works of God. Through His grace, our nature is changed and step by step, or grace by grace, we come to act more as He would act and Be more as He would be. Salvation by grace is a beautiful thing... and its result is a bettering of the works manifest in us. Perhaps the reason that we will be judged at least in part by our works is not because works save us (we know they don't) but because the works manifest in us are one of the objective proofs of the grace of God that we have (or have not) truly accepted into our lives.
Old 03-31-2008, 08:33 AM
13,779 posts, read 16,052,454 times
Reputation: 7223
May I ask a few questions to Mormons on the thread?

What is the significance of the Mormons special undergarments? At what point in a Mormon's life are they required to wear these garments?

Is it true that a "secret" name is given to everyone in the church? Is this similar to receiving a name at confirmation?

Every Mormon I have known have been the most amazing people. They are truly family oriented and very civic minded.

I hope these inquiries are taken in the vein in which they were intended. I am truly interested.

Thank you!
Old 03-31-2008, 09:25 AM
178 posts, read 204,109 times
Reputation: 40
Dear mrstewart,

Mormon.org may be a good place to go for some of your questions. Not all Latter-day Saints wear these special undergarments, but it is true that Latter-day Saints whom have been in the LDS temples to make further promises and Covenants with God wear these. Everything that goes on in the temple is quite sacred (though not truly secret). As such, I will not discuss all of it openly, particularly in this forum but I take no offense at your questions. I can answer some of what you ask.

After the Fall of Adam and Eve, God covenanted with them that a Savior would be born of the "woman." This Savior (we believe Him to be Jesus Christ, the OT Jehova) would overcome the effects of the Fall. At that time, Adam and Eve were given coats of skin to "cover their nakedness" by the Lord before they were cast out of the garden of Eden.

The undergarments "cover the nakedness" of those whom wear them and amongst other things, symbolically remind us, at least in part, of the events of the Fall as well as the specific covenant and promise of the Savior that was made to Adam and Eve at the time of the Fall.

Other religions also sometimes have various items of clothing which they wear on a daily basis to help remind them of God as well. I hope this helps.

Thank you for your courtesy.
Old 03-31-2008, 09:30 AM
13,779 posts, read 16,052,454 times
Reputation: 7223
Thank you so much for your information and I will definitely visit the mormon.org site. Thanks for sharing.
Old 03-31-2008, 12:01 PM
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,580,953 times
Reputation: 771
Originally Posted by JNHarris View Post
1 and 2 above is based on the assumption that the Bible is complete and inerrant.
Maybe I'm being unclear because neither 1 or 2 requires the Bible to be inerrant or complete.
It is perfectly reasonable for one to be convinced of the general truthfulness of the Bible, read that the Bible says that any prophet who contradicts the revelation of the Bible is wrong. This does not mean future revelation isn't possible, it simply means that if Joe Smith says there are three gods then that teaching is contradictory to the scriptures according to my interpretation and that of every other Christian denomination, therefore he is wrong.
The second point is simply common sense. That if God was going to clear up the corruption of the entire church through a single man, it would probably be prophesied in the scriptures...again, I don't see reasonable interpretation of Joseph Smith in the scriptures.

I have no reason to assume that the the Bible is incorrect. I've been convinced of the accuracy of the Bible by my own experience, and the Bible testifies to the fact that God preserves his word in the scriptures and that any revelation that runs contrary to it is simply wrong. He also makes it clear that major events are prophesied.
Old 03-31-2008, 03:41 PM
9,080 posts, read 4,453,092 times
Reputation: 988
Originally Posted by JNHarris View Post

Again, you do not fully understand our beliefs... Will we be judged by our works, yes. The Bible is clear regarding this (Rev 20:12). However, will we be saved by our works... Absolutely not.

Or may I do......

Ensign May 1989 p 20: “Elder Joseph Fielding Smith offers this counsel: ‘Salvation does not come all at once, we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. It will take us ages to accomplish this end, for there will be greater progress beyond the grave.’ "

The greatest stress upon Mormons is that "we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect"

Jesus in LDS is an "example" or "invited us to follow Him and to do likewise "

Jesus in Christianity is the "subsitute" his perfection is ours now.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify." Romans 3:21

"For we maintain that a man is justified [to be declared Holy, worthy by Heavenly Father] by faith apart from observing the law." Romans 3:28
Old 03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
178 posts, read 204,109 times
Reputation: 40
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post

Ensign May 1989 p 20: “Elder Joseph Fielding Smith offers this counsel: ‘Salvation does not come all at once, we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. It will take us ages to accomplish this end, for there will be greater progress beyond the grave.’ "
Joseph F. Smith was teaching the words of the Savior Himself.

Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Paul echoed this same sentiment...

Ephesians 4:11-13, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists.... For the perfecting of the sants... Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

John also understood this concept....

1John 3:2-3 , "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him... And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not teaching a new gospel, but rather the Eternal Gospel.
Old 03-31-2008, 08:43 PM
Location: Southern Ca
756 posts, read 1,622,200 times
Reputation: 238
Dont you mormons believe you will get your own planet if your "good enough", and be your own "Jesus" to it and therefore be a god???
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