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GCSTroop said :bigger congregation = more $$$. It's all about money. Money is the root of all evil and the churches have the largest amount of money
This is a almost true statement. Part A is accurate... however B is not. It is not a statement but rather an andectodal observation from a limited perspective.
It is about money... I agree... but money is an absolutely need to provide the necessary components for faith to develop. There is less chance to bring someone to Christ who is starving or ravaged with AIDS, or to minister to people who have young children and need day care, or low cost meals, or safe places for young people to gather, or leaky roofs, or broken down cars, or medical needs, or no family, and on and on. Preach the gospel always... and sometimes use words. Basic needs must be provided for all.... before the word can be effectively preached. It is no wonder Jesus performed the miracle feeding of the 5000 (plus wives and kids) before the sermon on the mount. People are subject to the needs of the flesh... and good churches have a foundation built upon the great commission who reach out to provide services, and for spiritual needs. This is no different than social services that large organizations provide, as well as the Federal Govt.
Abuses reguarding money, is rampant. Churches (most) certainly do not have a inpenetrable barrier to prevent the abuse of money... but do operate much more efficiently than lets say... United Way... or any social services provided by your tax dollars. In addition, Church staff needs to be paid a living, respectable wage.... the Bible provides guidelines about compensation. No where does it say church people need to be paid less then everyone else... or should. Actually those that take care of church activities and preach should receive a ''double honor".
In spite of Christian ethics... many will fail in their roles as good stewards. The Bible also speaks of their judgement, and it isn't good. It hurts to see so many promenant Christian leaders fall in shame and then cover it up... their actions are 10x more damaging towards witnessing. There are good examples and bad examples... of failed leadership that involves money.
Money is like fire... in your fireplace it's beautiful, but on your curtins it's destructive.... and yes it is the root of all evil.
I live off of a street called Church Road in Mississippi. Do you know how many Southern Baptist churches there are on this road alone? 7 in 7 miles! That's one every freaking mile. I have a hard time believing that it's because they want to spread the word. It's because down here church is like McDonald's. The more buyers, the more money it brings in. The Catholic churches don't open up churches here because they know it would be a failed industry. The churches cater to markets just like any business does.
The function of a church is first and foremost to provide a fellowship for like minded followers. The charge of spreading the word is a personal one. It is not a church mission. The church organization's role in this is to support the individual christian with their ministry. The church leader's role is to support the fellowship and to help maintain focus, support and growth of the members.
That is why there are 7 Southern Baptist churches in a 7 mile stretch. Each one has different groups of followers with slightly different needs. Since you noted that they are all of the same denomination, I challenge you to visit each of them and see if they all preach, act and believe the same way. You will likely find that some emphasis something more or differently than the others. Church doctrine in the Baptist churches is very individual despite a common base level belief. Since the will of God is a very personal thing, followers often develop different sets of priorities and even different concepts of interpretation. I know you find it hard to believe that something as straightforward as the bible could possibly be read by two people and they get different messages from it. Alas, it is so. I think if we were meant to be followers with the same cloned image of religion imprinted on our souls, God would have created us without imagination or free will, and definitely without the ability to make choices. No choice, no variation.
In the case of these 7 churches, the market is not the unbelievers as you might expect, but rather the followers that have different needs.
Bigger congregation = more $$$. It's all about money. Money is the root of all evil and the churches have the largest amount of money, collectively, than anything else on the planet, kind of interesting isn't it?
Actually, the quote is "The love of money is the root of all evil." Money itself is an inanimate object and has no value in and of itself. You might as well say blue rocks are the root of all evil. Until such a love and pursuit of the possession of blue rocks starts to override all other concerns, those blue rocks have no impact on good or evil. Money is likewise valueless until someone starts to desire it too much.
Churches are not exempt from this failing any more than any individual is. Hopefully, most churches are founded on true faith and are better equipped to resist this temptation than the average non-faith based organization. If that is the case, then the larger amounts of temptation are better resisted by the churches than the other organizations and will cause less evil in their hands.
For those churches that are not founded in faith, then it makes you think they are not really churches despite their disguise, right?
Right, and what happens to a church that eventually can't pay it's bills? It goes under like any corporation does. So what does it do to prevent that from happening? Seriously, what will a church do to prevent itself from going under? I think the message will start to change from a "Love God" perspective to a "Teach others to Love God" perspective. "Welcome them into your homes and our church!" Well, of course that is what they would teach. Bigger congregation = more $$$. It's all about money. Money is the root of all evil and the churches have the largest amount of money, collectively, than anything else on the planet, kind of interesting isn't it?
GCSTROOP ,Money is not the root of all evil,its the "Love of Money",that is the root of all evil. A church is not the same as a corporation,its not selling shares of stock at the entrance to the church.A church is a going concern built on faith, and it expands because the congregation is united as one (One Body of Christ)and loves to share the gospel with others. Tithing in the church is necessary to keep the church a going concern,but it is God's anyway.
A church that goes under is usually because of division and strife within the Body of Christ and not for monetary reasons
I believe that tithing is sowing into the kingdom of God. However, there are churches and "ministries" out there that are out for themselves. So, I think it wise to pray and make sure that you are "sowing on good ground". I believe, and have seen, that if you are sowing with a pure heart on good ground that blessings just seem to pour in...
And Noland is right--that verse is one of the most misquoted in the world. It is the love of money, not money itself, that is the root of all evil. In other words?
Option 1: Church Membership
Tithing is the membership's gift to God that the church uses to support it's operations. This is not a requirement, but is requested by God and freely given. Amounts vary from member to member based on many variables including but not limited to economic situation, recognition of need, desire to participate, guilt factor, public approval desire, and desire to follow God's word. As you can see, not all of these factors are biblical in nature and some are not even desirable, but human nature also factors into this equation.
Benefit of membership is debatable, as many religions do not require church membership for salvation and some do. I personally believe that membership in a church is not necessary for faith, but tithing is still a wish of my God and should be undertaken. My tithes support several churches as well as mission programs.
Option 2: No Church Membership
Unless you fall into my personal category of no specific church but still a christian believer who tithes, there is no tithing cost.
If you follow the beliefs of a religion that requires Church membership for salvation or do not accept the Christian belief of salvation through faith alone, then lack of church membership carries a cost of potential condemnation according to the beliefs of the churches whose membership that has been rejected. Since this cost analysis is for church membership, I am assuming that a need for salvation and/or religion has been recognized and the existance of heaven/hell are not in contention. Since Hell is a recognized possibilty, it must be accounted as a cost of not becoming a church member.
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As I'm sure other's do, I can't stand quoting individual sentences because it is such a pain so I bolded the points I would like to address.
1. It is requested by God... and who interprets that for you? Who tells you that it is requested by God? Are we all born with the knowledge that we must give money to a church because there is a God that requests money? No, obviously someone has made this distinction for you.
2. They have made this distinction from the next set of bolded points that you brought up. Guilt and a desire to follow God's word (interpreted through mortal man). As you point out that these are all human factors and not biblical. Again, why are they human factors? Because a small number of humans have made the distinction for many that they must tithe and they have used guilt to make you desire to follow God's word.
3. They have used guilt to make you desire to follow God's word so that you have an expanded fear of eternal punishment. Therefore, to give to God is good and to do that is through the church.
4. What happens if you don't tithe? Well assuming that you do not tithe your share it must be similar to buying tickets to a ball game. If you don't pay the full price for admission than you are not allowed entry. That's how I see it. Of course, you can always watch the ball game at home for free!
5. Scaring people to believe in a hell concept and giving back to the church so as to further your position with God is only different from giving a human sacrifice in that to take a human life is a more extreme form of altered morals. What the church does on a day to day basis is no different than a con-man telling a little old lady that for 10% of her monthly pay she can further benefit herself because this man can help her. It's no different, except you can attach a "religion" sticker on it, market it, and receive money tax free for it all with the government's approval.
As I'm sure other's do, I can't stand quoting individual sentences because it is such a pain so I bolded the points I would like to address.
1. It is requested by God... and who interprets that for you? Who tells you that it is requested by God? Are we all born with the knowledge that we must give money to a church because there is a God that requests money? No, obviously someone has made this distinction for you.
2. They have made this distinction from the next set of bolded points that you brought up. Guilt and a desire to follow God's word (interpreted through mortal man). As you point out that these are all human factors and not biblical. Again, why are they human factors? Because a small number of humans have made the distinction for many that they must tithe and they have used guilt to make you desire to follow God's word.
3. They have used guilt to make you desire to follow God's word so that you have an expanded fear of eternal punishment. Therefore, to give to God is good and to do that is through the church.
4. What happens if you don't tithe? Well assuming that you do not tithe your share it must be similar to buying tickets to a ball game. If you don't pay the full price for admission than you are not allowed entry. That's how I see it. Of course, you can always watch the ball game at home for free!
5. Scaring people to believe in a hell concept and giving back to the church so as to further your position with God is only different from giving a human sacrifice in that to take a human life is a more extreme form of altered morals. What the church does on a day to day basis is no different than a con-man telling a little old lady that for 10% of her monthly pay she can further benefit herself because this man can help her. It's no different, except you can attach a "religion" sticker on it, market it, and receive money tax free for it all with the government's approval.
GCS, I'm telling you-I think the "C" in GCS stands for cynical! Salvation is free. Church attendance is free. There is no connection between salvation and the giving of money.
As far as the difference between the "love of money" or "money" itself, you can try to discredit my thoughts with a misquote but it doesn't take from the fact that hard-working people give A LOT of money to people based on blind faith alone and the fear that the church has instilled in them as to whether or not they will go to heaven.
Again, I do not understand the need for tithing. All I've ever heard from Christians is that all you need to do to go to heaven is "Accept Jesus into your heart". Well, if this is true, than it should be that cut and dry. You feel compelled to preach the gospel to others for what reason? Because the bible told you to do it? The bible also tells you that capital punishment is an acceptable form of punishment for those who commit adultery.
But we don't practice that on a daily basis now do we? Why not? Oh, that's right, I forgot that somewhere in between the years 1 B.C and 33 A.D the Abrahamic God became loving and nice towards all of mankind.
I find it comical that a group of people can stand up and rightfully defend blowing 10% of their pay and I'm shocked to see how many are standing up for it.
"OF COURSE WE NEED TO GIVE MONEY TO THE CHURCH".
"CHURCH IS FREE, BUT YOUR PENNANCE IS NOT!"
"TAKE JESUS INTO YOUR HEART AND YOU WILL BE SAVED! Oh, and by the way, the tithe basket, is right at the exit"
"WE MUST SPREAD THE MESSAGE OF JESUS, WE ARE COMPELLED TO DO IT. Oh, and we can't do it without a little cash and God kind of says you're supposed to donate 10% so the basket is by the door."
I don't know why, but I'd kind of feel ripped off????
GCS, I'm telling you-I think the "C" in GCS stands for cynical! Salvation is free. Church attendance is free. There is no connection between salvation and the giving of money.
Yes and the "S" stands for skeptical. Kaykay, can I ask you something? I'm not sure if you tithe or not, but let's say that you do. What would happen if you went to your pastor/preacher/priest on Sunday and told him you were cutting off the tithe fund because you felt it was unnecessary?
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Alas, it is so. I think if we were meant to be followers with the same cloned image of religion imprinted on our souls, God would have created us without imagination or free will, and definitely without the ability to make choices. No choice, no variation.
Boiling it all down...
good point, johnrex!
