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Old 08-07-2007, 02:00 PM
 
204 posts, read 345,408 times
Reputation: 133
Default Did God allow man to change the bible and if so WHY?

The other post got me to thinking about something.

For all the Christians who believe the bible is only partly the word of God, or that man has put his influence on it, or man has Ďtaintedí it, or that its God inspired but man wrote it, therefore its not 100% from God...

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion, or give further details on what you believe.

I personally believe that the entire bible (as stated on a previous post) is 100% the word of God. I have heard many arguments from people on how/why MAN supposedly changed the bibleÖ.okÖ.so if thatís the case then why is it that you think God allowed it?

I mean if He took the time to come up with it, wouldn't He want it preserved?

Assuming God is omnipotent and omniscient, from that line of reasoning I keep coming up with this:
1. God didnít have enough power to preserve his word
2. God didnít have enough wisdom to figure out how to preserve his word
3. God had both the wisdom and power to preserve his word, but didnít care if man changed it
4. God had both the wisdom and power to preserve his word, but purposely decided Heíd let man change it anyway
5. God didnít have the foresight to realize man was going to change his word

Which is it that you believe? If He knew man as going to change it and 'taint' it then why would he let that happen?
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 222,971 times
Reputation: 466
OMG! I have had this argument so many times over I don't even know if I should do it again.

The Bible is inspired of God, written by man.

IMO, take your line of reasoning and apply it towards the whole issue of sin and hell and eternity. Obviously God allows things to be as they are for a reason.

It is not a belief that the Bible has been "tainted" (to use your word) by man. It is a fact. I have gone to Bible college and was raised as a pastor's son in church, and always attended Christian school. The Bible has always been a constant part of my life (except for those years in my 20's when I was being a bad boy ). I have taken classes on the History of the Bible, the Biblical Canon, Translations, ect. It is an absolute fact that the Bible has been altered, to greater and lesser degrees, by man.

There are reasons why God allows this, just as there are reasons why we all don't live in bliss and perfection everyday. I don't claim to know them all, but it has nothing to do with God's omniscience or omnipotence. It is what He has allowed for reasons known to Him. But again, it is factual that the Bible has been formed by man's opinions, so since that is a fact, I know that God has allowed it for His reasons.

To me, that makes it no less God's word, but I always read and study carefully. Test everything, and hold fast to that which is good.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:38 PM
 
204 posts, read 345,408 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
OMG! I have had this argument so many times over I don't even know if I should do it again.

The Bible is inspired of God, written by man.

IMO, take your line of reasoning and apply it towards the whole issue of sin and hell and eternity. Obviously God allows things to be as they are for a reason.

It is not a belief that the Bible has been "tainted" (to use your word) by man. It is a fact. I have gone to Bible college and was raised as a pastor's son in church, and always attended Christian school. The Bible has always been a constant part of my life (except for those years in my 20's when I was being a bad boy ). I have taken classes on the History of the Bible, the Biblical Canon, Translations, ect. It is an absolute fact that the Bible has been altered, to greater and lesser degrees, by man.

There are reasons why God allows this, just as there are reasons why we all don't live in bliss and perfection everyday. I don't claim to know them all, but it has nothing to do with God's omniscience or omnipotence. It is what He has allowed for reasons known to Him. But again, it is factual that the Bible has been formed by man's opinions, so since that is a fact, I know that God has allowed it for His reasons.

To me, that makes it no less God's word, but I always read and study carefully. Test everything, and hold fast to that which is good.
Ok but I have actually HEARD reasons on why God allows sin, hell, suffering and most stem from God saying the Earth is a time of our testing and trial, or to draw us closer to Him so that we fully rely on Him. Or to prepare us for the kindom to come. And I've heard dozens of reason on why God would allow hell. You haven't given me ONE reason why he would purposly ALLOW his word to be changed. I don't say or ask that you give me all ...but you haven't even given me one.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:50 PM
 
6,957 posts, read 16,144,113 times
Reputation: 6471
I just have to ask. If God cared if His Word was changed, how would He go about NOT allowing it?

Would He cause the translator/minister/or printer to just drop dead? Maybe a bolt of lightning? Or make it impossible for anything but the correct words be written/uttered? Maybe wait until the Bible was printed and then magically change all the incorrect writings?

I'm am not trying to be a smarty, I am just pointing out that sometimes people ask questions that would require God to do unacceptable things.

People do things. They may even mis-translate deliberatly or accidentally.

Either God controls and causes all our actions, good or evil or He doesn't control every little thing.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 222,971 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
Ok but I have actually HEARD reasons on why God allows sin, hell, suffering and most stem from God saying the Earth is a time of our testing and trial, or to draw us closer to Him so that we fully rely on Him. Or to prepare us for the kindom to come. And I've heard dozens of reason on why God would allow hell. You haven't given me ONE reason why he would purposly ALLOW his word to be changed. I don't say or ask that you give me all ...but you haven't even given me one.
Because I am loathe to bring the best example up, since everyone is sick of me going on about it, LOL...

I won't speak to it being CHANGED, per se, but it definately HAS been mistranslated.

Two thirds of the Bible (the Old Testament) does not mention Hell at all. (“Sheol,” the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means “grave” by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died–good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell (as we currently understand it)!

The apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does.

If Hell as we now understand it is real, why did Paul warn Timothy repeatedly to stay away from Jewish myths and fables, the likes of which were influencing many in the early church? Rather than affirming such doctrines, Paul declares them to be profane fables. (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:14)

The understanding and translation that the modern Christian has stems largely from St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Four out of six theological schools from 170 AD to 430 AD taught universal salvation while the only one that taught Hell was in Carthage, Africa, again were Latin was the teaching language, not Greek.

If Hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn’t read Greek (For example, Minucius Felix and Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated? Those early church leaders familiar with the Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible) saw universal salvation in those texts. Those who advocated Hell got it from the Latin, not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Who would more likely be correct–those who could read the original languages of the Bible or those who read a Latin translation made by one man (Jerome)?

So, it is apparent that at the VERY LEAST, the Bible has been mistranslated.

Last edited by jeffncandace; 08-07-2007 at 03:34 PM..
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:58 PM
Status: "Enjoying the mountains" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,015 posts, read 20,504,668 times
Reputation: 28044
Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
The other post got me to thinking about something.

For all the Christians who believe the bible is only partly the word of God, or that man has put his influence on it, or man has Ďtaintedí it, or that its God inspired but man wrote it, therefore its not 100% from God...

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion, or give further details on what you believe.

I personally believe that the entire bible (as stated on a previous post) is 100% the word of God. I have heard many arguments from people on how/why MAN supposedly changed the bibleÖ.okÖ.so if thatís the case then why is it that you think God allowed it?

I mean if He took the time to come up with it, wouldn't He want it preserved?

Assuming God is omnipotent and omniscient, from that line of reasoning I keep coming up with this:
1. God didnít have enough power to preserve his word
2. God didnít have enough wisdom to figure out how to preserve his word
3. God had both the wisdom and power to preserve his word, but didnít care if man changed it
4. God had both the wisdom and power to preserve his word, but purposely decided Heíd let man change it anyway
5. God didnít have the foresight to realize man was going to change his word

Which is it that you believe? If He knew man as going to change it and 'taint' it then why would he let that happen?
I agree with you, I also believe the Bible is 100% the Word of God. I believe God is omnipotent and omniscient and He does have the power to preserve and keep His Word.
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:07 PM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
3,603 posts, read 4,111,930 times
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Regardless of what anyone "believes", the bible we all know is written by man. It has many slight variations and tamperings period. This is a fact. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but there comes a time when reality is just reality.
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 222,971 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479 View Post
Regardless of what anyone "believes", the bible we all know is written by man. It has many slight variations and tamperings period. This is a fact. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but there comes a time when reality is just reality.
Indeed. And it's just a important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Just because it is not a perfect book doesn't mean that it is not chock full of spiritual food.
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
3,603 posts, read 4,111,930 times
Reputation: 2203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Indeed. And it's just a important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Just because it is not a perfect book doesn't mean that it is not chock full of spiritual food.
Oh agreed. You know my thoughts on religion, but I do agree that just because the bible wasn't "written" by God doesn't automatically mean that its meaning is void.
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:17 PM
 
6,957 posts, read 16,144,113 times
Reputation: 6471
For example. When I was growing up, the King James Bible was THE Bible. Now, we have many translations. The words have been changed. The one that comes to my mind right now is about "Faith, Hope and Charity." Charity has been changed to "Love"

To some people this could mean much different things. Now, did God allow Charity, or did He allow Love.

Of course, we can argue that the words mean the same thing, but not everyone would agree to that. The Words were changed.
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