The Fall of Darwinism ... (punished, biography, divine, attend)

[Tantalust]

Originally Posted by kiggy

Tootsie pops... mmmm....

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost

So, if someone finally discovers a way to create life in lab one day, he/she would fit your definition of God?

Even if she agreed to this now, if it eventually happened I'm sure you'd be deafened by the sound of her dragging the goal posts somewhere else.

[orogenicman]

Originally Posted by squall-lionheart

For the sake of the discussion let's be specific now about the subject "Darwinism & the evolution theory".
The Holy Quran said :
"4. Verily, We created man of the best stature (mould),"
You want the prove ??
Will a 4.4 million-year-old fossils of human ancestors be enough of a prove to you ?
Until Scientists discover an older fossils of "human Ape " You are the one who need to prove that humans were Apes not me !!!

You're saying that the Koran says that there was more than one god? No? Then why does it refer to your god in the plural?

Have you ever taken a comparative anatomy course? Do you know anything about the human body? Do you know anything about the anatomy of apes and all the other primates?


Traits all primates have in common with Humans:

Five digit hands with opposable thumbs.
Shortened shout.
Humans are the only apes that have lost their grasping feet due to adaptations to bipedalism. Aside from those adapations, human feet are very similar to that of other apes.
Forward looking binocular steroscopic vision coinciding with cranial adapations for improved vision and reduced sense of smell.
Fingernails and toenails (as opposed to claws).
Fingerprints.
All primates have a radius bone in the arm and a fibula bone in the leg.
Three bones of the middle ear housed in a skull outgrowth (the auditory or petrosal bulla).
Similar shoulder structures, particularly with regard to the scapula and clavicle.
All primates have a tendency toward vertical posture.
Enlarged brains.
Trend toward longer lives with longer periods of infancy, childhood, and adulthood.

Humans aren't just descended from apes. Humans are a species of ape. We are anthropoid apes.

[Roxolan]

Originally Posted by kiggy

I'm calling Darwinism a doctrine of atheism.

"Darwinism"? in this day and age? Let's say the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution is not logically required for atheism to be true. Atheism is not logically required for the theory of evolution to be true.

That said, to people who do not understand the fallacy of the god of the gaps, it sometimes appear that it's a major issue for atheism. And pretty much every atheist accepts the theory of evolution, since there's no reason not to do so these days if you're rational and educated. Some of us can get pretty angry when theists spread obvious falsehoods, especially in public schools. Add to this that some of the main figures of modern atheism are biologists, and inevitably the theory of evolution pops up in many a discussion between atheist and fundamentalist. That doesn't make it a "doctrine of atheism", but I can see why it might appear so to an outsider.

[Tantalust]

Originally Posted by orogenicman

Traits all primates have in common with Humans:

Five digit hands with opposable thumbs.
Shortened shout.

And shortness of pants.

[EinsteinsGhost]

Originally Posted by kiggy

No. It would fit into my definition of EinsteinsGhost's active late night imagination. Keep me posted on that though.

I sure will, given an opportunity. But I take it now that you were simply confused earlier and started seeing "God" in discovery of what makes for "life".

[Dusty Rhodes]

The Fall of Darwinism ...

LOL, far and away, I would put more trust in Darwin's theory than I would in either the bible or koran.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by orogenicman

You're saying that the Koran says that there was more than one god? No? Then why does it refer to your god in the plural?

Have you ever taken a comparative anatomy course? Do you know anything about the human body? Do you know anything about the anatomy of apes and all the other primates?

Traits all primates have in common with Humans:

Humans aren't just descended from apes. Humans are a species of ape. We are anthropoid apes.

Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost

So, if someone finally discovers a way to create life in lab one day, he/she would fit your definition of God?

Originally Posted by kiggy

No. It would fit into my definition of EinsteinsGhost's active late night imagination. Keep me posted on that though.

Actually, EI: we're all a bit behind the knowledge ball on this one. See: Dr. Craig Venter, San Diego; founder of The Human Genome Project, which will no doubt soon enough earn an equal place on the...

"Things We Have Been Told To Despise!" [like you know, Darwin and his "ism", whatever that is...): list memorized by scientifically and technically illiterate Christians everywhere, since it sorta bites them real hard in the pah-toot!.

I just know wiggy will run to look it up and improve her background knowledge.

Originally Posted by kiggy

I'm not denying logic or science. I'm calling Darwinism a doctrine of atheism. What's your problem?

A "doctrine" huh? Define please. (sorta like that old and ineffective taunt that atheism is a religion.)

Originally Posted by kiggy

I'm denying science and human reason as a way to understand and appreciate God. Alternate views of who God is or isn't are also faiths, like Darwinism. I do not believe a person can prove God through scientific or human reasoning -- at least not yet. When Christ returns, though, all bets are off. But by that time, it will be too late for you, my friend. So I'd explore the Bible one more time if I were you. And use the heart and soul God gave you, this time.

Well what do you know! I actually AGREE with you, kiggsters! Science and Reason are NOT the best way to understand God. You need a Ouija Board, a dark eye-covering cloak, some good sound-deadening and logic-excluding headphones, and someone to stick you with a cattle prod every time you ask a reasonable question.

No! Bad student! Bad Christian! BAD!

To, you know, supress those wild outbursts of curiosity and enthusiasm for knowledge that categorize the basic untainted hominid mind. That is until The Church gets hold of your cranial cajonés... (It's been observed that some priests have been practicing this technique for the last few decades, BTW...)

Couple of quick points though; 1) having an understanding of Darwin's ability to conceptualize from what he clearly observed and documented is not a faith, unless you want to claim faith in a process with a spectacular success story over literally centuries (see: "science").

Nope. That's just understanding and agreeing with the obvious, and having respect for it's honesty without letting (or encouraging, in the sad case of Christianity) outside biases to smother it.

2) I agree again with you. No human can prove God so far, though it should be simple enough: Just get Him to show up. Now, I don't want to hear all the canned and relentless excuses, since those only confirm us atheists' beliefs: no God = No Show.

If He truly exists, let him show up tomorrow am in a Uganda refugee camp, and insta-feed all the starving kids, and smite all those evil rebel thuggos who are stealing food from those women and children. Just that one visit, captured on CNN/Fox/BBC World News, let's say dressed in a gold robe, and with a name-tag that clearly says God. Then He'll have me for good.

Otherwise, we can and do continue to prove that the things the church and it's minions attribute to a God do not need one, and can be easily duplicated without Him.

Soon enough, we'll formulate life out of basic chemicals, pop them into a suitable lifeless container-cell, and BINGO, it will self-boot-up, and go into it's DNA and predictable laws-of-nature controlled replicating behavior which will, amazingly, look just like LIFE! . Indistinguishable, in fact, from LIFE.

(Special note: Life does not mean a fully formed man, ziggy! It also means some single-celled proto-viral particle. Just give that one 4.5B years, and then check back!)

Then, following on in the footsteps of Lenski's experiment, that new LIFE will eventually, oh within a year or 5, mutate into... YIKES... a different species! Holy Evolutionary Miracles, Batman!

All without the conspicuously ABSENT God. Thus proving He just doesn't care, or, more likely...

...that He just doesn't exist.

Proof enough for the logical and unafraid amongst us.

________________________________

My definition of Darwinism? A flawed moniker devised by fearful Christians to denegrate the entirety of our logical understanding of Darwin's original concepts, coupled with the now-proven biochemical facts of mutations and replication.

Used as a slander by uneducated Christians, and in fact, when uttered by them, it quickly defines their lack of knowledge on the subject.

[orogenicman]

Outstanding response, Rifleman. I might add that I didn't include DNA evidence in my list because I was trying to give a list that was simple enough for the simple minded to grasp while being accurate and falsifiable. But you are right, DNA mapping has entirely ended the "debate" (not that there actually was one) on the fact of evolution.

[davehalo]

rifleman, orgenicman....what many "faithful" fail to even realize is that Darwin was a man of "God" and struggled for years with his ideas. If these "faithful" truly understood 1800's christianity in Anglican enlang, they might have a dawning realization that Darwin prayed and went to church more often than they do on a weekly basis.

point is...belief in a "god" does not preclude understanding and accepting evolution.

the experiments creating "life" in the lab are pretty cool. it may only be a matter of time though before we have a slight "accident" and '28 days' occurs...