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I have conceeded nothing, the debate will continue. There is no checkmate because I am not playing a game with you.
You can prove God to yourself by using Physcology and science, both are excellent ways to determine God;
which really means to determine the truth.
There is no debate...Debate is give and take, and all you do is give us what you believe, and there is no changing your mind no matter how many times you are proven wrong....You are wrong about almost everything.
There is no debate...Debate is give and take, and all you do is give us what you believe, and there is no changing your mind no matter how many times you are proven wrong....You are wrong about almost everything.
I have changed my mind on this site FAR more than you have, and the archives will bear that out. If I were to use your own criticism toward me, and aim it back at you, use your standard of give and take as being evidence of a good debator, then I have NEVER seen you change your mind- you have NEVER shown an ability to give and take that I can recall. So according to your criticism, you are far more quilty than me- of your own gripes. Now what do we label people who criticise others, and yet they are far more quilty of the critque themselves? I'll let you answer that one.
You prove God to yourself by ignoring his critics; and learn to confront his reality on your own.
I am not talking about "winning". I am talking about what is true or not. If it is all a pissing contest to you, as you have suggested in the past, then you are welcome to your numbers.
If however you are trying to establish what is true then numbers of people saying it is true is less than meaningless. If it is true it is true regardless of whether 1 person, 100, or 1 billion think so. If it is false then it is false regardless of whether 1 person, 100 or 1 billion think it is true anyway.
No Nozz...not a "pissing contest"...REALITY.
You just see it as a "pissing contest" because your platform is the one that has been getting soaked with it for thousands of years.
You want the TRUTH?
Try this truth: As far as the influence of the concept on the world, "proving God" is less than meaningless. Due to THE FACT that for the last FIVE THOUSAND years 98% of all the people that have ever lived TRULY believe a God does exist.
Also, this TRUTH: It has been almost unheard of for any high level ruling political official in modern history to be elected by a margin as great as the margin of the difference between Theism and Atheism. Rarely does anyone ever lose by as much as Atheism loses to Theism. If they do, they refer to it as being beaten by a landslide.
Here is the REAL TRUTH: The concept of "God Exists" has so dominated mankind for so many thousands of years it could be considered the most prolific elective concept EVER.
OTOH...Atheism, in that regard, is pretty much the "nothing" that is the basis of it's platform.
We've got people all hung up on whether the existence of God is "true" or not...meanwhile, millions of people have died (and more are dying at this very moment) in fights that have their motivation in Religion/God. As well as millions of people having been fed, and helped, and cared for (and more being fed, and helped, and cared for at this very moment) in the name of Religion/God.
"True" or not...as far as mankind is concerned, for the last many thousands of years of history, for all intents and purposes the existence of a God is a "given". And that's not about to change anytime soon, if ever. You need to get hip to that.
I have changed my mind on this site FAR more than you have, and the archives will bear that out. If I were to use your own criticism toward me, and aim it back at you, use your standard of give and take as being evidence of a good debator, then I have NEVER seen you change your mind- you have NEVER shown an ability to give and take that I can recall. So according to your criticism, you are far more quilty than me- of your own gripes. Now what do we label people who criticise others, and yet they are far more quilty of the critque themselves? I'll let you answer that one.
You prove God to yourself by ignoring his critics; and learn to confront his reality on your own.
Why would I change my mind? You have given me no reason to do so, and I have evidence that tells me I am correct, so being correct I have no reason to change what I think....I dispute your claim that you have changed your mind about anything...All I have seen you do is slightly modify your position on evolution, but you still haven't even got that right...Again this is NOT a debate.
Try this truth: As far as the influence of the concept on the world, "proving God" is less than meaningless.
Convenient for you given you cant I guess. However I do not ask for proof of god. I ask for any evidence,arguments, data or reasons to even lend credibility to the claim it exists. You can not even provide that. No matter how many people agree with you, this will never make it true.
"True" or not...as far as mankind is concerned, for the last many thousands of years of history, for all intents and purposes the existence of a God is a "given". And that's not about to change anytime soon, if ever. You need to get hip to that.
Get hip to the fact that most of you are very gullible? Yes, we knew that coming in here. It's not news.
Convenient for you given you cant I guess. However I do not ask for proof of god. I ask for any evidence,arguments, data or reasons to even lend credibility to the claim it exists. You can not even provide that. No matter how many people agree with you, this will never make it true.
You missed, or are sidestepping my point again.
MY POINT: As respects it's effect on the world (what really counts), it doesn't matter whether the existence of a Deity is actually "true"...as long as billions upon billions upon billions embrace the concept of the existence of a Deity.
ANNNNNNND, I've given you the "evidence" for God many many times Nozz...you just don't agree:
We DO KNOW that the mass/energy that DOES IN FACT EXIST...Creates through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force...."Controls" that which is created through "laws", that we do IN FACT know to exist...and Maintains and Sustains that which has been created by it.
We also know, that these are the attributes known to define a God.
Regardless of what ever anyone wants to call the KNOWN EXISTING mass/energy...it is, by its KNOWN ATTRIBUTES, definitively a God.
It matters not whether this creation, control, and maintaining/sustaining happened out of what some believe to be "chaos"...and organized itself by "random chance"...it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that that has happened, and is still happening.
It also matters not if this mass/energy has always existed and was never itself created (or is a "multiverse")....it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that it does exist.
And, by it's KNOWN ATTRIBUTES (as opposed to "assigned attributes")...is definitively a God...without it existing in any other state than just the way it is, and has been known to be.
THIS is the evidence that "God Exists" that everyone asks for.
But by labeling that which we know to exist (and has the attributes that we know to define a God) something other than the "God" that it is by definition...they then deny the existence of God.
But then they turn around and acknowledge the existence of "Nature", "The Universe", etc...that has just been shown to be God, by the known attributes that are, by definition, demonstrative of a God Entity.
As I've told you before Nozz, Atheists are not unlike someone that has always been blind, telling a sighted person, that, even though he/she used their sense of sight to observe something over and over again, that does not necessarily prove it is so.
Because they themselves are not capable of sight, they do not comprehend the capacity of that sense to gather data for a person that does.
They support this contention on the basis that they have never seen anything, so the fact that others have, doesn't matter...and that they don't believe in the ability of that sense to collect data and make factual determinations based on what is observed through that sense.
Furthermore...they proclaim all those that attest to their visual abilities to be either liars or somehow fooled into thinking they could actually see things.
Of course, the blind persons' contention wouldn't make that so, even though the contention is true as far as they are concerned.
That you, and a small minority of others, don't have the ability to "see" God, I find most unfortunate.
But even more unfortunate...is that you don't have the common sense and wisdom to figure out that 8or9 out of 10 people are NOT liars or delusional when they tell you what they KNOW through their ability to "see" (right-brain perception) something you can't.
Not that it matters to "The Way Of The World".
Right or wrong, evidenced or not, true or false..."God Exists" RULES anyway.
And THAT is what REALLY counts to "The Way Of The World", not headtrips about what isn't evidenced or verified with data.
Actually no, it was you side stepping my point. My original point was that no amount of people believing there is a god will make it true. You responded with a completely side point about its effects on the world. So you are hardly in a position to accuse others of side stepping when you have been doing it since your first reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
I've given you the "evidence" for God many many times
False. Aside from this arbitrary appeal to numbers, going on and on about how believers out number non believers, and a self serving fallacy that people who do not agree with you are just "blind", you have not once offered me a shred of evidence. Ever.
Why would I change my mind? You have given me no reason to do so, and I have evidence that tells me I am correct, so being correct I have no reason to change what I think....I dispute your claim that you have changed your mind about anything...All I have seen you do is slightly modify your position on evolution, but you still haven't even got that right...Again this is NOT a debate.
Then stop using your common critic against me for not being flexible and changing my mind, ( which is a false accusation anyway; when I came to this site I didnot believe in evolution, now I do- I didnot believe churchs should be taxed, now I do- I believed Noahs flood was worldwide, I now believe it was an isolated flood, I didnot believe in primordal man, now I do- thats just four changes and there has been more, you can't even list one change you have made- yet you dare use change as an imputus to claim I cannot change)), It is really you who has not changed.
And your arguement that I cannot change is transparent and I see through it;
Yet you cannot see through yourself! That is another blindspot to how to prove something, one must first learn to get pass their self prejudices.
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