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Old 07-19-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
10,460 posts, read 10,216,971 times
Reputation: 6057

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Katzpur's probably going to sit this one out, since she thinks the question is kind of stupid. Questions like "Why are Mormons the way they are?", "Why are women the way they are?", Why are gays the way they are?", and "Why are Asians the way the are?" serve no useful purpose except to allow someone to vent.
Except that I'm asking about a religion (a set of values and beliefs) and I explained exactly why I'm asking that question.

You can easily say that my 2 experiences don't represent that religion. Or that they do.
But when you say "That question is too stupid to answer" to me you are admitting that my impression is correct and you don't want to address it.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,120 posts, read 10,097,583 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Except that I'm asking about a religion (a set of values and beliefs) and I explained exactly why I'm asking that question.

You can easily say that my 2 experiences don't represent that religion. Or that they do.
But when you say "That question is too stupid to answer" to me you are admitting that my impression is correct and you don't want to address it.
Don't tell me I'm admitting something when nothing could be further from the truth.

You didn't ask about LDS values and beliefs. You asked about the character and personality traits of an enormous group of people based on your experiences with three individuals. If I were to describe my experiences with three African Americans, three Muslims, or three lesbians that were obnoxious, overbearing, callous and insensitive, and were then to ask, "Why are African Americans [Muslims, or lesbians] the way they are?" people would call me a bigot, and rightfully so.

Last edited by Katzpur; 07-19-2011 at 10:06 AM..
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:08 AM
 
23,191 posts, read 11,396,093 times
Reputation: 3932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
To make it clearer, perhaps you should read this thread of mine: http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...mormonism.html
Thank you Hueff . . . I apologize for not reading it sooner. I know Mormonism is a fraud perpetrated by Smith and it has some truly Moderator cut: deleted So I had no interest in your escape from it. However, to understand you and where you are coming from I decided to read the thread. It is a long post and a long thread . You stirred up a hornets nest among your former brethren . . . especially justamere. I do not want to take this too far off-topic . . so I will finish reading the lengthy thread and talk with you more later in a more appropriate thread. The strength of your abreaction is now very understandable.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-19-2011 at 11:51 AM..
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,120 posts, read 10,097,583 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thank you Hueff . . . I apologize for not reading it sooner. I know Mormonism is a fraud perpetrated by Smith and it has some truly whackadoo beliefs.
Hueff once knew Mormonism was true. Now, like you, he knows it's a fraud. He once knew God existed; he now knows there is no God. (You haven't come to that knowledge -- yet.) So, is what he knew to be true, true or is what he knows to be true, true? Truth is, nobody "knows" anything for sure. None of us know how much evidence may be missing, much less what it is, or where it may ultimately turn up. Every person in the world, whether a believer or a non-believer, would do well to keep an open mind about things that cannot be proven or disproven conclusively.

Last edited by Katzpur; 07-19-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:12 AM
 
23,191 posts, read 11,396,093 times
Reputation: 3932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Hueff once knew Mormonism was true. Now, like you, he knows it's a fraud. He once knew God existed; he now knows there is no God. (You haven't come to that knowledge yet.) So, is what he knew to be true, true or is what he knows to be true, true? Truth is, nobody "knows" anything for sure. None of us know how much evidence may be missing, much less what it is, or where it may ultimately turn up. Every person in the world, whether a believer or a non-believer, would do well to keep an open mind about things that cannot be proven or disproven conclusively.
That Joseph Smith fraudulently established the basis for Mormonism is proven conclusively enough for anyone not indoctrinated into it and subject to cognitive dissonance about it. That does not belie the beautiful and sincere love of Christ that is embraced by members and displayed to the world. It is simply proof that God "can draw straight lines even with a crooked stick." There are many wonderful people inspired and motivated by the many crooked and phony preachers in mainstream Christianity as well.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,120 posts, read 10,097,583 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That Joseph Smith fraudulently established the basis for Mormonism is proven conclusively enough for anyone not indoctrinated into it and subject to cognitive dissonance about it.
Good grief. That's an oversimplification if there ever was one.

Quote:
That does not belie the beautiful and sincere love of Christ that is embraced by members and displayed to the world.
The fact that the OP obviously disagrees with you just goes to show that there is no good answer to the question, "Why are Mormons the way they are?" I guess we just are what we are, and what we are is undoubtedly attributable to what our religion teaches us to be.

Last edited by Katzpur; 07-19-2011 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:53 PM
 
2,019 posts, read 1,603,340 times
Reputation: 930
Dopo,
I can understand why you'd jump to the conclusion that all Mormons must be pushy, since all of the ones you've met have been. Yet, as mentioned, there are all walks of life in all big groups. True, as Hueff mentioned, every member is considered & pressured to be a missionary. What I like about Mormonism is the idea of personal revelation, everyone involved & participating & loving each-other (including humanitarian work) & high standards (integrity etc.). What I don't like is the narrow mindedness/herd thinking, shame & fear (associated with other religions also) & prejudice.

To get a basic idea of what Mormons believe, read the LDS Articles of Faith, the 11th is to respect other religions. So, you won't hear many Mormons bash other religions, yet many will share their religion with you. IMO, they incorrectly believe that there is only one way to God, when there are really countless ways. I was raised lds/Mormon. A couple of years ago, I realized spiritually, there are no religions after death & that religions are more like tools to resonate spiritually, not the end in itself. Yet, I still go to church, to support my family & for the sense of community, yet I don't look to it for spiritual nourishment - but more as a past spring board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Dopo, I think you expect too much from other people.
You expect other people to actually care about you. Well, dream on. Ain't gonna happen.
No one is trying to slap you in the face.

Life is a lot easier and much more enjoyable if you just accept people as they are instead of getting all mad if their actions are not exactly what you want. If some people irritae you, then avoid them, and hang out with the people you enjoy being with. SImple as that.
Good point, & not just about this topic, but in general.
For a long time, I believed that people should care about me, without me having to do much & I repeatedly was disappointed because it doesn't work that way. I realize now, that nobody is that unconditional (except maybe an ideal mother & dogs). Most healthy people want a mutual relationship... not to do all the caring without anything in return.

Last edited by SuperSoul; 07-19-2011 at 05:01 PM..
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 1,417,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Hueff once knew Mormonism was true. Now, like you, he knows it's a fraud. He once knew God existed; he now knows there is no God. (You haven't come to that knowledge -- yet.) So, is what he knew to be true, true or is what he knows to be true, true? Truth is, nobody "knows" anything for sure. None of us know how much evidence may be missing, much less what it is, or where it may ultimately turn up. Every person in the world, whether a believer or a non-believer, would do well to keep an open mind about things that cannot be proven or disproven conclusively.
Let me clear up something, although it is true I once claimed to know God and know that the LDS church was true, I no longer claim to know anything (as in am certain and cannot be wrong), except that "something is happening". I was cured of thinking I know anything when I was forced by decisive evidence to conclude that I was wrong after being so certain Mormonism was true. That kind of took the wind right out of me and humbled me enough to never be so foolish again to think I know something with 100% certainty.

I may occasionally get lose with my words and through the word "know" around (although I really try to be mindful of that nowadays), but even then I use the word "know" in the common vernacular, not implying absolute certainty.

So, I don't claim now nor have I ever claimed to know there is no god. Now, in regards to the Book of Abraham, although one cannot be absolutely certain about anything, I really can't conceive of any rational way to avoid the conclusion that it is a fraud, and believe me I tried. I don't see how any future evidence that might come forward to possibly get the Book of Abraham off the hook. I remember thinking at the time, not even Jesus himself could successfully defend the Book of Abraham and make it anything other than a fraud. Of course, I can't know that for sure, so I must reluctantly admit there is a tiny possibility I could be wrong, but really when one becomes as intimately familiar with the evidence as I became, an honest and frank look at the evidence demanded I recognize the Book of Abraham as a fraud. I would have avoided that conclusion if I could have and remained intellectually honest with myself, and it wasn't for trying. I read and fairly evaluated every apologetic argument existent at the time, and I turned my intellect and creative imagination to the task of trying to find a way to maintain the possibility that somehow, someway the Book of Abraham might be what Joseph Smith claimed it was, but it was to no avail.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,120 posts, read 10,097,583 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Let me clear up something, although it is true I once claimed to know God and know that the LDS church was true, I no longer claim to know anything (as in am certain and cannot be wrong), except that "something is happening". I was cured of thinking I know anything when I was forced by decisive evidence to conclude that I was wrong after being so certain Mormonism was true. That kind of took the wind right out of me and humbled me enough to never be so foolish again to think I know something with 100% certainty.

I may occasionally get lose with my words and through the word "know" around (although I really try to be mindful of that nowadays), but even then I use the word "know" in the common vernacular, not implying absolute certainty.

So, I don't claim now nor have I ever claimed to know there is no god. Now, in regards to the Book of Abraham, although one cannot be absolutely certain about anything, I really can't conceive of any rational way to avoid the conclusion that it is a fraud, and believe me I tried. I don't see how any future evidence that might come forward to possibly get the Book of Abraham off the hook. I remember thinking at the time, not even Jesus himself could successfully defend the Book of Abraham and make it anything other than a fraud. Of course, I can't know that for sure, so I must reluctantly admit there is a tiny possibility I could be wrong, but really when one becomes as intimately familiar with the evidence as I became, an honest and frank look at the evidence demanded I recognize the Book of Abraham as a fraud. I would have avoided that conclusion if I could have and remained intellectually honest with myself, and it wasn't for trying. I read and fairly evaluated every apologetic argument existent at the time, and I turned my intellect and creative imagination to the task of trying to find a way to maintain the possibility that somehow, someway the Book of Abraham might be what Joseph Smith claimed it was, but it was to no avail.
Okay, well thanks for your explanation. I'm pretty careful never to use the word "know" myself, even as a believer, but I see the word used on this forum constantly. My point still stands: None of us knows for sure. To me, it's a sign of an overblown ego when someone says he does.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:34 PM
 
875 posts, read 804,419 times
Reputation: 765
They are just trying to spread their faith... nothing wrong with that. I don't know exactly how he acted with you, but it seems like he just wanted to help. Can't judge ALL Mormons based on that one person though...
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