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Old 07-21-2011, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,113 posts, read 10,066,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
No, He didn't say that and He didn't just leave. He sent the promised helper, the Holy Spirit, to believers on the day of Pentacost and to each professing believer since then. Essentially, instead of sending more prophets, Christ sends himself.
I disagree, skillkit. Paul said that the Church Christ established would include prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelists, etc. He said that this organization needed to exist until all of us were in unity of belief, and that otherwise, we'd be "as children tossed about by every wind of doctrine." The Holy Ghost isn't the same thing as a prophet and was never intended to be. The Holy Ghost is critical to the spiritual well-being of each and every Christian, but Jesus never said that (a) He would send the Holy Ghost instead of continuing to send prophets (Amos said God would always communicate to us through prophets, not just up until the time of Christ) or that (b) He and the Holy Ghost were essentially the same individual. Again, though, I would prefer not to debate this particular topic on this thread. It doesn't seem all that closely related to the OP to me. I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere, though.

Quote:
Muslims, and anyone else who has rejected Christ, will not. I understand this is counter to what you believe, but that's the way I see it.
Have you ever wondered if you, personally, had been born in an Islamic state, would have "rejected Christ" or not? Have you ever thought about having been born in the 4th or 5th century in China or somewhere in the middle of Africa whether you would have "rejected Christ"? It's a kind of scary thought to consider.

Quote:
In any case, Islam may indeed see Isa as a great prophet, but a great prophet is not the Christ and that's the key to salvation. Anything else than the risen Christ may be great as an example, but it cannot save one's soul.
I totally agree. I disagree totally with the Islamic view of Jesus. I just don't think they are any more "anti-Christ" than the Jews, and that they are, in fact, less so. I bet that if you started a thread on that topic, the results would be exactly as I've predicted.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,933,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Have you ever wondered if you, personally, had been born in an Islamic state, would have "rejected Christ" or not?

Yes, I've wondered that, but it seems to me that the Gospel message would have reverberated with me there just the same as it did here. I think I would have still made the choice I made in this envoirnment. After all, it's the Spirit which does the calling and the individual who must respond to it. And, that calling, I think, is specific and unique to each individual because we are all unique people and respond to different things. I'm sure the Spirit would have tailored my call to fit whomever I might have been in that other location.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,933,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I disagree, skillkit. Paul said that the Church Christ established would include prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelists, etc. He said that this organization needed to exist until all of us were in unity of belief, and that otherwise, we'd be "as children tossed about by every wind of doctrine." The Holy Ghost isn't the same thing as a prophet and was never intended to be. The Holy Ghost is critical to the spiritual well-being of each and every Christian, but Jesus never said that (a) He would send the Holy Ghost instead of continuing to send prophets (Amos said God would always communicate to us through prophets, not just up until the time of Christ) or that (b) He and the Holy Ghost were essentially the same individual. Again, though, I would prefer not to debate this particular topic on this thread. It doesn't seem all that closely related to the OP to me. I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere, though.
That would be fine with me too, but I'm not quite sure how a new thread should be structured or how the inititial question should be phrased.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,113 posts, read 10,066,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Yes, I've wondered that, but it seems to me that the Gospel message would have reverberated with me there just the same as it did here. I think I would have still made the choice I made in this envoirnment. After all, it's the Spirit which does the calling and the individual who must respond to it. And, that calling, I think, is specific and unique to each individual because we are all unique people and respond to different things. I'm sure the Spirit would have tailored my call to fit whomever I might have been in that other location.
You know you're one of my least favorite people to argue with, stillkit. I like you too much to want us to get into a fight over this. I just don't believe that it's logical to think that the Holy Ghost would have called you to accept a message you'd never heard.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,113 posts, read 10,066,313 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
That would be fine with me too, but I'm not quite sure how a new thread should be structured or how the inititial question should be phrased.
How about I formulate the question and send it to you in a DM? Once we've agreed on the wording, I'll start a new thread.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,933,482 times
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You know you're one of my least favorite people to argue with, stillkit. I like you too much to want us to get into a fight over this. I just don't believe that it's logical to think that the Holy Ghost would have called you to accept a message you'd never heard.

Well, obviously one has to HEAR the message before you can either accept it or reject it. That's true anywhere and at any time.

My understanding is that those who have never heard the Gospel message in the post-resurrection days are covered by the Grace of God and will not be held accountable for not having heard of Jesus. Every human being begins with his/her name in the Book of Life and it is only blotted out there when they reject Christ. That necessarily entails having made a choice to do so, but.....

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent...

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Those who have never heard the Gospel message will either be essentially pardoned because of having never heard it, or be given the opportunity after death, as the Jews will have the chance and as those who died before Christ got the chance. However, those who HAVE heard the Gospel and rejected it will not get a second chance.

ps: I don't fight online, especially with friends!
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,933,482 times
Reputation: 7399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
How about I formulate the question and send it to you in a DM? Once we've agreed on the wording, I'll start a new thread.

Ok. That's a fine idea. Or, just do it however you will. That would be fine too.
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,113 posts, read 10,066,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Well, obviously one has to HEAR the message before you can either accept it or reject it. That's true anywhere and at any time.
Okay, so we agree to some extent anyway.

Quote:
My understanding is that those who have never heard the Gospel message in the post-resurrection days are covered by the Grace of God and will not be held accountable for not having heard of Jesus. Every human being begins with his/her name in the Book of Life and it is only blotted out there when they reject Christ. That necessarily entails having made a choice to do so...
I guess the main thrust of our disagreement is that I believe all will be given the chance to hear, consider what they've heard, and either choose to believe or not.

Quote:
Those who have never heard the Gospel message will either be essentially pardoned because of having never heard it, or be given the opportunity after death, as the Jews will have the chance and as those who died before Christ got the chance. However, those who HAVE heard the Gospel and rejected it will not get a second chance.
Since we all "see through a glass, darkly," I believe God will make the gospel of Jesus Christ clear to anyone who is pure in heart and sincere in wanting to know the truth, and that He will do so before passing judgment. I'm thinking of people who may technically have "heard" the gospel, but who heard it within a context that was not condusive to having the Holy Ghost testify of its truth. They may have lived in a culture where the Christian message was distorted to such a degree that it didn't touch their heart as it might have done had they heard it taught elsewhere and under different circumstances. Since only God can know the condition of a person's heart, I would not go so far as to say that He would categorically deny someone the chance to accept the gospel after this life under any circumstances. I will say, however, that if a person who has had every opportunity to truly understand the gospel in this life and yet rejects it out of willful stubbornness, it would be highly unlikely for him to react any differently to it after death. When I think of the millions of people living today in Islamic countries, though, I wonder how many of them have a truly accurate understanding of Christianity. They may have a very superficial knowledge of it, but that knowledge was gained through life in a culture that did not present the Christian message in the same way you and I have heard it.

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ps: I don't fight online, especially with friends!
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