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"Christian Nation" does not necessarily imply anything more than the REALITY of the majority theological makeup of the citizens of the country.
It appears to be the lifeline of religious zealots wanting to have Christian ways implemented, however, because they feel they're the majority. This is exactly where the problem starts, and the tussle with the US Constitution which admonishes religious preference of ANY kind, attached with the nation.
India, for example, is a country with Hindu majority (80%). Nepal is another. However, only one of them can be called a Hindu nation, and that is not India but Nepal. India, by law, is a secular country and that law came about as the constitution was adapted from the British and the US constitutions.
It appears to be the lifeline of religious zealots wanting to have Christian ways implemented, however, because they feel they're the majority. This is exactly where the problem starts, and the tussle with the US Constitution which admonishes religious preference of ANY kind, attached with the nation.
India, for example, is a country with Hindu majority (80%). Nepal is another. However, only one of them can be called a Hindu nation, and that is not India but Nepal. India, by law, is a secular country and that law came about as the constitution was adapted from the British and the US constitutions.
I look at it differently. Now, it would be wrong to put them all in the same category, of promoting secularism in the government (there were some religious zealots among them, as is to be expected all across humanity) but the overall essence of the US Constitution is clear: No religion gets priority. No religion rules others in ANY way. If you don't care for the writings, then you clearly don't care for the US Constitution (which is a writing).
As for actions, being a realist, I can see why some things were simply continued despite the claims. Take slave trade, for example. Your claim is based on the assumption that they were for it simply based on the fact that they didn't downright outlaw it. The way I see it, they couldn't, if their priority was to build a nation. They knew that outlawing slave trade would make it nearly impossible for the states to unite. So they postponed such aspects to a later date and this is evident in a clause in the US Constitution (Article I, Section 9, Clause 1):
"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."
They postponed their first attempt to eliminate slave trade for a generation, to put the unity hence building of the country as a priority. To me, it doesn't matter what or who they were in their personal lives, but what matters is the framework they described for the US as a nation.
OTOH, y'all look at their personal lives and assume that to be the way things were meant to be for the USA as a nation.
AGAIN...more "fluff" about, "What the Constitution SAYS".
So what?!...that they wrote what they wrote means SQUAT...when the REALITY is, they turned the government into a super Christianity promoting machine.
I think the concepts they wrote in the Constitution are great...too bad those so-called "Founding Fathers" were a crew of evil, lying, genocidal, con-men that didn't have the character, the integrity, and/or the guts, to implement or follow them.
Their "reasons" for continuing slavery, are whatever their "reasons" were.
The issue I have---Is them writing up "documents" stating "All men are equal" and that they have a right to "life, liberty, and happiness"...WHILE they continued slavery, and, sanctioned a genocide!
Anyone that can't see their actions, relative to what they said and wrote, as the height of hypocrisy...is either willfully or actually ignorant.
It appears to be the lifeline of religious zealots wanting to have Christian ways implemented, however, because they feel they're the majority. This is exactly where the problem starts, and the tussle with the US Constitution which admonishes religious preference of ANY kind, attached with the nation.
India, for example, is a country with Hindu majority (80%). Nepal is another. However, only one of them can be called a Hindu nation, and that is not India but Nepal. India, by law, is a secular country and that law came about as the constitution was adapted from the British and the US constitutions.
"Religious Zealots" would want their ways implemented whether they were the majority or not, and regardless of the law. That's the nature of "religious zealots".
Where the problem lies...is being the majority in REALITY...in a nation ruled by the power of the majority vote---If they fully organize, based on sheer numbers, the religious can get anyone elected they want, take over the government, change the Constitution, and take over the country.
The reason they haven't done that, I believe...is because the status-quo wasn't offensive enough to them to get them all riled up. But that is starting to change...and you might just see the fallout from that sooner than you think. You could be about to see what a religious nation this REALLY is.
So, keep "pushing" them...and keep mocking and taunting them...and you'll see where that gets you.
No it doesn't. It simply means that a large percentage of the voting public would be wary of a political candidate who professed to have no religious belief. Many people think there is something significant about placing a hand on a religious book and saying "So help me God" make the oath of office somehow mean more. (BTW, neither of these things are officially a part of the Oaths of Office.)
I can't comprehend why somebody would want to call this a Christian Nation. That clearly implies that religion is a part of the government, which it emphatically is not. Somebody else hinted at the seriousness of the concern when they implied that the growing Muslim population would lead to laws favorable to the practice of Islam. I guess that means that when our Christian Nation is overcome by Muslims and becomes an Islamic Republic, laws will change to reflect Sharia law. If you insist that this is a Christian Country, would that make you happy?
My preference is to keep religion COMPLETELY out of politics.
How come those fake Christian politicians don't fake being Jewish, Hindu, Muslim ? If they're going to fake a religion, you think they chose Christianity out of a hat ?
We've been over the different ways people can define 'Christian nation' and in mine it does not mean a government that implements anything a majority of Christians want, or a national religion, or outlawing freedom of religion.
You wrote--- "I can't comprehend why somebody would want to call this a Christian Nation." I don't 'want' to call it a Christian nation; I think the historical Facts prove we were founded and developed as one [as I've defined it].
AGAIN...more "fluff" about, "What the Constitution SAYS".
So what?!...that they wrote what they wrote means SQUAT...when the REALITY is, they turned the government into a super Christianity promoting machine.
I think the concepts they wrote in the Constitution are great...too bad those so-called "Founding Fathers" were a crew of evil, lying, genocidal, con-men that didn't have the character, the integrity, and/or the guts, to implement or follow them.
Their "reasons" for continuing slavery, are whatever their "reasons" were.
The issue I have---Is them writing up "documents" stating "All men are equal" and that they have a right to "life, liberty, and happiness"...WHILE they continued slavery, and, sanctioned a genocide!
Anyone that can't see their actions, relative to what they said and wrote, as the height of hypocrisy...is either willfully or actually ignorant.
I take it that the US Constitution is nothing more than a fluff to you. It is why I feel that, as an American, it is my duty to defend it at any cost. As for your issue with the constitution (something written) versus personal lives of people involved in its institution, I had spelled out our differences. You see no difference between personal lives and the rules for a collective. I do.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
"Religious Zealots" would want their ways implemented whether they were the majority or not, and regardless of the law. That's the nature of "religious zealots".
Well, that goes without saying but wanting has a different impact when such religious zealots are the majority and operate on that ground.
Quote:
Where the problem lies...is being the majority in REALITY...in a nation ruled by the power of the majority vote---If they fully organize, based on sheer numbers, the religious can get anyone elected they want, take over the government, change the Constitution, and take over the country.
Unfortunately, yes. However, the best one could do is make it difficult and the architects of the US Constitution tried their best in the document. No?
Quote:
The reason they haven't done that, I believe...is because the status-quo wasn't offensive enough to them to get them all riled up. But that is starting to change...and you might just see the fallout from that sooner than you think. You could be about to see what a religious nation this REALLY is.
No doubt about that. Chaos and pain is an opportune time for such elements to rise. It always has been, and not just in this country but EVERYWHERE. I guess that is the ultimate make up a religious makeup? We appear to go thru cyclic process where we learn from mistakes and then after a lot of pain, try to correct. The pain is next.
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So, keep "pushing" them...and keep mocking and taunting them...and you'll see where that gets you.
Well, should one expect anything less from the "deeply religious"?
How come those fake Christian politicians don't fake being Jewish, Hindu, Muslim ? If they're going to fake a religion, you think they chose Christianity out of a hat ?
Clearly, you didn't get my earlier post that addresses this issue. Let me give you an example. There are two locations where you know gold is abundant but one offers a better chance. Which would you pick?
Exactly. Politicians operating on religious grounds are going to fool the majority. You won't see a politician faking being a Christian in India or Pakistan because that religion is minority. The right wing there belongs to the Hindus (80% of the population) in India, and to Muslims in Pakistan. In America, where 80% of the population is Christian in one form or another, why would you pick to fake a religion that covers may be only 2-3% of the population at best? Oh, and in America, it might be okay to fake Judaism, because a huge chunk of Christianity dwells on evangelical grounds (especially the south), which ties everything to Israel and God... the Christian Zionism. Why else do you think there is this idea of "Israel can do no wrong" so rampant in the American political landscape?
There's the crux of the matter. "as you've defined it" In no way does that make it an accurate definition.
Several Presidents and USSC justices have stated this is a Christian nation. They had to know there's no national official established religion, the constitution doesn't declare us Christian and protects rather than forbids non-christian religions and no religion. If those are your definitions of christian nation, no discussion necessary. This isn't and never was Christian [unless you use the 'majority are Christian' definition, which I don't].
Untrue. Having spoken with (Christian) missionaries, and the challenges they face in various countries, the common theme surrounds that it is Christianity that appears to be the only one that tries to get to people and convert them. Other religions (including Islam) don't do that, at least as feverishly. The result is that there is much animosity towards Christian missionaries in many countries. You don't see that problem in those countries towards other religions for that reason.
So you spoke to some missionaries? Ive been talking to missionaries all of my life and thats not the conclusion that I’ve come to. Fortunately or unfortunately in this country we overly critique ourselves and under critique other countries and cultures. If you want I will come up with a long list of links from reputable recent examples of forced Muslim conversions.
Your either naive, in denial, biased, or a mixture of the above to have that view. The evidence is many Muslims can't even get along with other Muslims because they don't like the way other Muslims practice their religion. conversion is what it's all about when it comes to religion whether you deny it or not.
I am not religious, I am a Scientist and Agnostic, I have no dog in this fight. I look at the evidence today that the majority of the world sees from outside of religion. If you are a serious Christian or Muslim, you probably can't comprehend how the rest of the world views you any how. If you had a pole today which asked people around to world what religion is viewed as a bigger threat to their safety it surely would not be Christianity.
As an Agnostic person I look at Christianity and the way that it is practiced at large as an annoyance in my life: Dam Christians ringing my door bell that I have to tell to go away. I look at the violence in predominately Muslim Middle East and now in Muslim populations in Europe where people are afraid of their Muslim neighbors.
Now, on a local level if I go to a Church or a Mosque for services all is rosy and feel good! The speeches in both Churches or a Mosques are about actions of charity and good deeds. To bad the evidence is so negative on a larger level. It's just a bigger reason that we should strive to keep religion out of our government.
Last edited by LS Jaun; 08-24-2011 at 12:12 PM..
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