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Old 08-30-2011, 06:41 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,545,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
None of this indicates Christian women are to be considered "property". Far from it. It simply tells us that God desires the man to be the head of the family. Your commentary is in stark disagreement with those who've studied the original language.

From The People's New Testament Commentary (Eph. 5):

As Christ loved the church. Loved so well as to be willing to give all things, even life, for her welfare.

From the Matthew Henry commentary:

The duty of husbands is to love their wives. The love of Christ to the church is an example, which is sincere, pure, and constant, notwithstanding her failures.

From the Adam Clarke commentary:

We find that the authority of the man over the woman is founded on his love to her, and this love must be such as to lead him to risk his life for her. As the care of the family devolves on the wife, and the children must owe the chief direction of their minds and formation of their manners to the mother, she has need of all the assistance and support which her husband can give her; and, if she performs her duty well, she deserves the utmost of his love and affection.
Well, sans is actually dealing and his point is that in the OT women were evidently regarded as property. Now, if one says that the New Covenant changed all that he might argue that it wasn't anything like equality and if a woman leaves all she had and enters her husband's house and is subject to him, then not being 'property' albeit beloved property (presumably unless she argues or answers back in which case she can expect to be a bit less beloved for a while) appears to me to be a matter of semantics.
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Old 08-30-2011, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,398 posts, read 12,700,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Well, sans is actually dealing and his point is that in the OT women were evidently regarded as property. Now, if one says that the New Covenant changed all that he might argue that it wasn't anything like equality and if a woman leaves all she had and enters her husband's house and is subject to him, then not being 'property' albeit beloved property (presumably unless she argues or answers back in which case she can expect to be a bit less beloved for a while) appears to me to be a matter of semantics.
I will admit that the wording here is troublesome for my argument, but if you take all the Biblical passages re: the marriage relationship, I think it's clear God does not view women as something to be owned or purchased by a man, like one would a car or house.

My wife "belongs" to me (and I to her) because of the commitment we've made to each other & God. Yet, Scripture indicates there are circumstances under which she (or I) can break that commitment and not be in sin.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:28 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,545,443 times
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I rather suspect that the circumstance would be where the husband is deemed not worthy of a Christian wife and the Church exerts its superior property rights. But perhaps you'd quote the passages you have in mind.

Ps. I was keeping this back, but I should say it now. There is of course an element of affection and even sharing in the marriages in both Old and New T, and the feeling that the man is in charge is so common in human societies that one can hardly fault the Bible for taking the same view. I think the point is not really that God is nasty for advocating treating women like slaves or farm animals - that doesn't really seem to me to be that case - but that it doesn't express a more emancipated view at which we have only just arrived. The view of the Bible appears to be the view of men at the time and place of writing, without getting any more enlightened views from a god who we would expect to be aware of them. That's also the reasoning behind the argument from warfare and slavery that we also get. Not that the Bible is worse than the views of the men of time but that it is really no better.

Bottom line. If the Bible was just written by men, what would be different about it?

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-30-2011 at 07:38 PM..
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I rather suspect that the circumstance would be where the husband is deemed not worthy of a Christian wife and the Church exerts its superior property rights. But perhaps you'd quote the passages you have in mind.
The circumstance I was speaking of is marital unfaithfulness.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:49 PM
 
16,294 posts, read 28,451,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
So you are not bound by the commandments huh?

Do you see what I mean now, Arequipa? Abject denial is what I see.
If jj's church formed a dodge ball team, they would be a force to reckon with.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,398 posts, read 12,700,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
If jj's church formed a dodge ball team, they would be a force to reckon with.
We do have a stout softball team.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,406 posts, read 18,922,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Cherry pick much? Here are a few you ignored.

Corinthians ...
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5

5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Disgusting bs!
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,406 posts, read 18,922,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I've never argued the submission thing. The NT is clear, as you say. However, the husband is given a command also, a very serious one, as I mentioned before. God has a heirarchy for the family. How can a family have two bosses, so to speak? Someone has to have the final say. The Bible urges couples to discuss serious matters, but the husband has the final authority. All must be done in love.

Nowhere does Scripture indicate Christian women atr to be considered "property".
In democracies we strive for consensus.

If the bible preaches hierarchy, it is espousing a dictatorship, isn't it?
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:59 PM
 
6,034 posts, read 10,658,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Abortion and teen pregnancy are also higher in the bible belt states.
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:48 PM
 
2,469 posts, read 3,119,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I don't think I'm in denial that I have sexual desires. Although some anti-anxiety medicines I take may affect them I don't think they're much below average. I just decided at some point that those kinds of romantic connections wouldn't be something I'd manage well and that I don't really want them anyway. I suppose there's always casual sex, but even if it weren't just religious objections I think there would be other difficulties there. (I have a brittle bone condition so ideally they'd have to know what positions I can safely do, which would probably be a bit of a buzz-kill on strictly casual sex. Also 42 inch tall men with scoliosis aren't usually the ideal for a purely sexual relationship. Lastly I think I would find it a little sad somehow even if I could manage it.)
Hi Thomas,
You're pretty good at calling people on their stuff, so I'll call you on yours.
I think you do want romantic connections... maybe you just feel discouraged.
Let me tell you, for guys, maybe looks are more important.
But for what visual stimulation is to men, good communication is to women.

When I was single, I met this guy who was parapelegic - paralyzed from the waist down. I remember looking at a picture in his apartment of him & his friend & I thought, "Hm... his friend's pretty cute." Then, after I got to know him... very intellectual, well grounded & good sense of humor (like you)... I happened to look at that same picture & he looked so much more attractive!
The picture didn't change, but my image of him did. To this day, he has a part of my heart - awesome guy.

Have you seen any clips by Nick Vujicic?...

Never give up - No Arms, No Legs No Worries - Nick Vujicic - YouTube
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